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Old 01-13-2013, 02:40 PM   #81
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Default Re: GURPS Releases seem to be slow?

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Originally Posted by Dammann View Post
I am starting to wonder if this is still true. Is it just a vocal minority who want it? I know some people have said that they don't really want it, they want a catalog, but...
A lot of people don't use vehicles at all. For example, Dungeon Fantasy is quite popular, and I'd be astonished if a DF gm got any use out of Vehicles. A lot of people who could use vehicles generally don't bother. Someone running an Urban Fantasy WoD knock-off, for example, probably just waves his hand and says "There are cars, they work, I really don't care about more than that." If they need stats, the ones provided in the core book are sufficient. Even when people do start to dig into vehicles, like in, say, GURPS Action, most people are happy with stats provided in the book, or want accurate stats to real-world vehicles, and if they're sufficiently motivated, they'll have figured out how to stat those elements on their own (as I have) based on Wikipedia entries.

Vehicles is really for the people who want a way to stat hypothetical vehicles. That's useful in only a handful of genres, as not everyone who plays in those genres really needs a great level of detail. For example, sci-fi would be the sort of place you'd see a lot of Vehicles use, but Spaceships will give you a good, rough approximation of what you need there, and UT will give you a handful of vehicles you can use for other purposes.

Me, I want the ability to have greater detail and precision when designing my spaceships and gravtanks. I want to dig into the physics of how things work, the economics of it. For me, Vehicles is more than just a book about designing vehicles: it helps to shape my worlds. But I have no illusions. I know I'm in a niche. There's quite a few of us in that niche, but we're still a niche.
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Old 01-13-2013, 08:03 PM   #82
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Default Re: GURPS Releases seem to be slow?

Another thing about Vehicles is that once it is out I expect to see catalog books of vehicles start appearing. Either submitted and published or fan based.
Despite no requirement for Vehicles in such a catalog we have some on the Wish list even now that remain unpublished.
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Old 01-13-2013, 09:06 PM   #83
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Default Re: GURPS Releases seem to be slow?

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A lot of people don't use vehicles at all. For example, Dungeon Fantasy is quite popular, and I'd be astonished if a DF gm got any use out of Vehicles. A lot of people who could use vehicles generally don't bother. Someone running an Urban Fantasy WoD knock-off, for example, probably just waves his hand and says "There are cars, they work, I really don't care about more than that." If they need stats, the ones provided in the core book are sufficient. Even when people do start to dig into vehicles, like in, say, GURPS Action, most people are happy with stats provided in the book, or want accurate stats to real-world vehicles, and if they're sufficiently motivated, they'll have figured out how to stat those elements on their own (as I have) based on Wikipedia entries.
Vehicles also require chase rules and long-distance-travel rules to be useful. At low TLs, such travel rules must be complicated and include things like bad weather, different winds or tides, arbitrary delay by local authorities or bad luck, etc. I am told that Action provides some sort of chase system. Then there are vehicular combat rules ...
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Old 01-13-2013, 10:02 PM   #84
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Default Re: GURPS Releases seem to be slow?

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Vehicles also require chase rules and long-distance-travel rules to be useful. At low TLs, such travel rules must be complicated and include things like bad weather, different winds or tides, arbitrary delay by local authorities or bad luck, etc. I am told that Action provides some sort of chase system. Then there are vehicular combat rules ...
While that would be nice, especially Chase and dog fight rules I dont think it is required and could easily be a short supplement.
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:54 AM   #85
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Default Re: GURPS Releases seem to be slow?

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Vehicles also require chase rules and long-distance-travel rules to be useful. At low TLs, such travel rules must be complicated and include things like bad weather, different winds or tides, arbitrary delay by local authorities or bad luck, etc. I am told that Action provides some sort of chase system. Then there are vehicular combat rules ...
We call it "GURPS Vehicles" because the previous edition was called the same and it's good shorthand, but it's not: It's the GURPS Vehicles Design System. It would surprise me if it also contained expanded rules for actually using vehicles.
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:56 AM   #86
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Default Re: GURPS Releases seem to be slow?

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Another thing about Vehicles is that once it is out I expect to see catalog books of vehicles start appearing. Either submitted and published or fan based.
Despite no requirement for Vehicles in such a catalog we have some on the Wish list even now that remain unpublished.
Maybe. Back in the 3rd Edition era, SJ Games did try to put out a Vehicles Catalog, and got a lot of submissions. But they never published it (and I ended up deleting the playtest file, because back then I had chronic storage space problems). So what's different now? Why will SJ Games publish one or more catalogs of vehicle writeups, when they ended up failing to do so back at around the turn of the millenium?
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Old 01-14-2013, 02:17 AM   #87
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Me too, though I think that Vehicles has a deep-but-narrow appeal, that is, those who like it would be willing to put quite some money into it, but there's not many of us who want it.
You might well be right, as it stands at the moment I think vehicles is a gap in the system, and one that crosses several genres. So one that is quite important for a generic system (its certainly a criticism of GURPS I hear quite often)

Space ships seems to have done reasonably well in a commercial sense, and that's more genre specific.

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Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
Maybe. Back in the 3rd Edition era, SJ Games did try to put out a Vehicles Catalog, and got a lot of submissions. But they never published it (and I ended up deleting the playtest file, because back then I had chronic storage space problems). So what's different now? Why will SJ Games publish one or more catalogs of vehicle writeups, when they ended up failing to do so back at around the turn of the millenium?
I think the role PDF's now play would be a big difference between 3rd era and now. Especially as given the wide range of genres vehicles appear in and the genre specific nature of some vehicles would suit genre specific publications (GURPS WW2 for example). Then there are the aspects of vehicles use that would also fit a this as well. For example dog fights, chases & movie stunts, etc, etc. Genre specific vehicles, design and use can be combined, think of a high seas pirates supplement for example.

Don't get me wrong I would always like to see large comprehensive hard back releases, but vehicles, vehicle design and vehicles in the game is a big diverse subject. And not everyone is going to want to fork out for a Power armour design chapter and a Tanks of WW2 chapter when they want is to run dog fights over Hanoi circa 1972.

Vehicles are I think a much overlooked subject in most systems, because of the complexity, GURPS is one of handful of games that has a system and an ethos that can do them justice I reckon.

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Old 01-14-2013, 03:09 AM   #88
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Default Re: GURPS Releases seem to be slow?

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You might be well be right, as it stands at the moment I think vehicles is a gap in the system, and one that crosses several genres. So one that is quite important for a generic system (its certainly a criticism of GURPS I hear quite often)
I called it a narrow demand because there are many genres and styles of GMing that don't use it, but I called it deep because when we need it, we really need it. I also think it's a major gap and it stymies several of my campaigns. I'm really look forward to its release. I just don't think it's going to sell like crazy. Hope I'm wrong, though.
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Old 01-14-2013, 04:48 AM   #89
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Default Re: GURPS Releases seem to be slow?

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You might be well be right, as it stands at the moment I think vehicles is a gap in the system, and one that crosses several genres. So one that is quite important for a generic system (its certainly a criticism of GURPS I hear quite often)
I'm curious as to what other rules systems have an equivalent Vehicles Book, or substantial rules for creating vehicles in any of their existing books?

From a cursory search, Vehicle books seem to be more of a 3rd party product, and mainly catalogues, rather than core design rules from the systems main publisher.
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Old 01-14-2013, 06:50 AM   #90
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Default Re: GURPS Releases seem to be slow?

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I'm curious as to what other rules systems have an equivalent Vehicles Book, or substantial rules for creating vehicles in any of their existing books?
Mostly in mecha/battlesuit games, as far as I can tell. Games where they border on tabletop wargame.
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