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Old 07-27-2019, 11:59 AM   #51
Shoug
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: IQ to power spells

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Higher IQ wizards casting higher IQ spells isn't an effect of any house rule, it's how the original rules work, so I don't see your point in mentioning this.

In each of those examples, increasing the attribute being used to power spells by 1 point gives you 1 more point to power spells. That's not a new rule either.
RAW, increasing the attribute to power spells by 1 point gives you 1 more point to power spells, but it does not give you any increased access to more powerful spells. In this system, you get double value for every single attribute point. I mean, it's crazier than that, but I'll get to that.

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The last of your 40 point wizard examples is the one I already addressed as my own extreme case example (by a difference of 1DX). It's still just as true that to evolve to that point of having 20 points of spell power, the wizard has to increase the pertinent attribute 8 times. That's on average about 16 adventures.
No, RAW to get the same effect you'd have to increase your attribute points 16 times, except even then you'd have less effective casting power than in this house rule, because if you use all of it RAW you die. If IQ is used to derive a completely independent of anything casting limit, then you've more than doubled the efficiency of XP for wizards.

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If a starting wizard of only ST 8 can last 16 adventures, while staying ST 8 the whole time, he or she deserves to put that 800 XP wherever they want.
I wouldn't be that impressed if he did it in a system that improved his constitution as much as one where he no longer had to spend ST to cast spells. ST 8 goes a lot further when the only way for it to be damaged is by being attacked.

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Okay, but the the higher-ST wizard would be exactly as much better off too if spell power was coming from ST. And if we decided to power spells from DX, then higher DX or Aid to DX would be helpful too. Power spells by rubber bands, then you'll want/need more rubber bands. Again, this doesn't address play balance itself in any way.
It does because those stats govern other things too!

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And that very same arena wizard in an IQ-based mana system would have 1 more point to power spells. 1 point. What's the worry here?
That he'd also get to cast 1 point more complex spells, and that he'd get to have all of his ST for damage and never have to worry about the danger of casting a spell because that whole mechanic has been excised from the game.

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And I wouldn't call 4 points of survival advantage "only", I think it's pretty large in this game.
Which I think it's strange that you don't think it's an extreme advantage to not have to lose 4 points of survival advantage after casting 1 or 2 spells.

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The Mana spending limit based on IQ isn't that much of an enhancement for the more advanced, experienced wizard. It's much more help to the brand new, typical starting wizard -- the anemic ones who always die young! Yes it's rather counter intuitive. You'd think the higher IQ wizard would be over-advantaged by the Mana limit set at IQ, but in fact it's the lower wizard who benefits much more, proportionately to a ST based limit.
It is possibly the most radically empowering change to how wizards work that I have ever realistically imagined I would see somebody suggest. I suppose that's the crux of this whole discussion: Do you think that RAW starting wizards are too weak? If you do, all of this discussion of mana limits and whatnot makes sense. I personally don't think the original rules for wizards failed so catastrophically that I feel the need to give them 1000+(200*IQ) free XP upon character creation. In fact, the mechanic that you're suggesting is considerably more powerful than a fully charged level 2 staff, because manastaffs take much longer to recharge than fatigue and can be lost or destroyed, etc.
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Old 07-28-2019, 02:31 AM   #52
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: IQ to power spells

Shoug, thanks for such a well reasoned critique. I want to come back to a couple of your other points later, but it's late and this may be the most relevant:

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Originally Posted by Shoug View Post
Do you think that RAW starting wizards are too weak? If you do, all of this discussion of mana limits and whatnot makes sense. I personally don't think the original rules for wizards failed so catastrophically that I feel the need to give them 1000+(200*IQ) free XP upon character creation.
In a word, yes. I think starting wizards are too weak, and that's the main reason I'm a proponent of this whole idea. I like some of the other work-arounds for that problem that others have proposed as well, but favor this one for a few reasons I've mentioned here and there in my other posts.

I would never go so far as to say the original rules for wizards failed catastrophically. In fact, when my group came up with our house rule to use IQ-based mana to power spells, we made it a player's option to use that or a ST based wizard as in the RAW, and most of us including myself still used ST-based spell casting. So the World didn't end!
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Old 07-28-2019, 04:32 PM   #53
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: IQ to power spells

I love TFT, mainly for one thing; The need for all three stats, no matter what character you want to make. And there are viable options with all stats high or low. I truly hate systems that have one stat per class or archetype. IF that is the case why have stats at all? If we let wizards cast off of IQ for mana, why not let them roll vs IQ to hit? If we did we would limit most starting Wizards to IQ 14+ and most would probably be 8/8/16 or 9/8/15. Incredibly boring.

But, that said I do like the idea of specializing in a few spells or just one spell and have others as back up. My suggestion would be that you should be able to pick a spell at the current IQ level +2 a second time and then again at IQ+3. Savant and Sorceror work fine as descriptors. The reason for increasing the IQ level would be that the low IQ spells would see more use, since they could be taken twice or three times. A little bit like the old descriptions that you could cast a spell below your IQ with less sound, movements, etc.

So what would the effect be of these specialized spells? To be able to cast them more often of course. It would become that wizards de facto signature spell. Extra mana pools for just those spells seems tricky to keep track off, lots of extra rules to refill the pool and so on. So why not go with lower casting cost with those spells? It would also help with the problem of battle magic in TFT. The magic systems was developed for arena fights, but in an RPG setting out side of combat you might want spells with longer durations.

So a x2 spell you can cast for 1/2 mana cost round up. If it has a cost per turn, then cut that in half round down. If the cost is less than 1 pay 1 every other turn it is on.

And an x3 spell means you cut the cost of casting it to 1/3 (2/3 of a point rounded up and 1/3 rounded down). If the cost per turn is lower than 1, pay 1 every 3 turns.


This means that you could be a Fireball Sorceror taking it trice if you have IQ15+. The cost would be 0! mana for a 1-1 fireball, 1 mana for a 2-2 fireball and 1 mana for a 3-3 fireball.

And personally, I would also allow this for spells like Gate, since the IQ needed for a triple invested Gate Sorceror would be IQ 18, which is at the level of Control Gate!

I am sure there are other spells that would skew the economy somewhat, but I have no problem with that. You could always limit the access to the IQ+2 and IQ+3 versions of the spells in some RPG way. Hard to find spells, must be taken from start since you were born with it, need to find a mystical teacher or several years of practice.

And best of all, you would still need ST as a wizard. You can just do more with what you have, but at the same time, the pay off for one more ST, if used with a signature spell, will be doubled or tripled. And in execution the effect will be similar to the OP post suggestion. If you pay with IQ points and get specialized you get more castings with that spell.
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Old 07-28-2019, 05:37 PM   #54
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: IQ to power spells

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Originally Posted by Shoug View Post
RAW, increasing the attribute to power spells by 1 point gives you 1 more point to power spells, but it does not give you any increased access to more powerful spells. In this system, you get double value for every single attribute point. I mean, it's crazier than that, but I'll get to that.
But is it that much different than the double -- nay, quadruple value -- that you get by increasing ST under the RAW? And make it quintuple value for a wizard. All the three attributes have multiple functions in this system, and any increase to one attribute has more than a single effect on the entire character (which is super-efficient game design, and I do love it).

Increase ST by 1 point and you (1) increase the ability to absorb damage by 1 point, and (2) increase the ability to cause damage by 1 or more points because you can now heft a heavier weapon, and (3) increase your barehanded damage in HTH combat, and (4) increase your ability to absorb mundane fatigue by 1 point while also raising the encumbrance limit before taking a DX penalty for the weight of your gear, and (5) for a wizard, power 1 more point's worth of spell casting.

There are so many benefits to an increase in the ST attribute, it's a wonder anyone would ever increase their IQ when they could increase ST for the same expenditure of XP. Any wizard who increases their IQ a point, instead of ST, forgoes all five of those listed benefits under the original rules. That's a high price to pay for learning one more spell at one higher IQ level than they already knew, and otherwise gaining that 1 point help on rolls to disbelieve or notice things. Under the "IQ to power spells" model, they would still forgo four of those benefits, while the benefit of having 1 more point of spell-power is retained but transferred under a different attribute.

This is why although my group had an "IQ to power spells" house rule, I still favored high ST wizards most of the time.

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Originally Posted by Shoug View Post
...if you use all of [your ST] in the] RAW you die. If IQ is used to derive a completely independent of anything casting limit, then you've more than doubled the efficiency of XP for wizards.
[snip]

ST 8 goes a lot further when the only way for it to be damaged is by being attacked.
[snip]

...he'd get to have all of his ST for damage and never have to worry about the danger of casting a spell because that whole mechanic has been excised from the game.

It is possibly the most radically empowering change to how wizards work that I have ever realistically imagined I would see somebody suggest.
There's the rub, and I concede your point. Wizards would be much freer to use their magic in combat under this system. It might unbalance the overall game (to the extent it might become better to be a wizard rather than a hero) although there may be other mitigating circumstances even beyond the wizards forgoing those four ST benefits to utilize the IQ to Mana system.

One being that wizards would still be evenly matched against each other, as long as the same rules applied to all. (You couldn't have ST-powered wizards and IQ-powered wizards in the same World without huge inequities when they met in duels.)

There are certainly more moderate and probably safer ways to correct what I see as the weakness in starting wizards. Heck, you could just make starting wizards 34 point characters with 10 instead of 8 free points to assign at creation. Job done and no (other) rules got touched.

I'm not too enamored by the new Staff spells, and I can see a happy compromise between giving wizards a personal Mana stat equal to their IQs, and a liberalization of the Mana Staff rule which, coincidentally, is a Mana stat attached to the Staff with a maximum capacity already equal to the wizard's IQ! (SJ is probably wondering why we are even having this discussion since he gave us the Mana Staff).

By "liberalize" the Mana Staff spell, it would have to move down to IQ 8, replacing the original Staff spell altogether, if the intent was to benefit starting wizards. I'd let the storage limit be the wizard's full IQ from the start, and it would be raised a point then whenever IQ increased 1 point later. (This whole "tax-shelter" treatment of XP seems a little gamey to me!). And I'd simplify the recharge to 1:1. If a 12 mana Staff was empty, the wizard could put 12 ST into it at the rate of 1 per 15 minutes, the same rate as she'd be recovering her fatigue. So 3 hours later the Staff would be recharged, and the wizard would still be at the ST she had when she started recharging (no net gain over whatever fatigue she had to start). You'd never recharge it during combat, nor when you were in a hurry to get your own ST back up, and you wouldn't always get the chance to do so depending on the campaign game. One might allow that the wizard could sleep with the Staff in hand, recharging it as she dreamed, but again she wouldn't be recovering any of her own fatigue until the Staff finished drawing on her.

So there's an external Mana stat, with more limitations than the internalized, personal Mana stat. Both are initialized by IQ. And with less potential game imbalance for those who are worried about that, but still want to strengthen starting wizards. And for all it's usefullness, it still could get lost or broken, and have to be replaced from scratch.

Last edited by Steve Plambeck; 07-29-2019 at 10:47 AM.
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Old 07-28-2019, 06:18 PM   #55
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: IQ to power spells

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Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck View Post
But is it that much different than the double -- nay, quadruple value -- that you get by increasing ST under the RAW? And make it quintuple value for a wizard. All the three attributes have multiple functions in this system, and any increase to one attribute has more than a single effect on the entire character (which is super-efficient game design, and I do love it).

So there's an external Mana stat, with more limitations than the internalized, personal Mana stat. Both are initialized by IQ. And with less potential game imbalance for those who are worried about that, but still want to strengthen starting wizards. And for all it's usefullness, it still could get lost or broken, and have to be replaced from scratch.
IQ for a wizard has always been the primary stat, even more so since you can easily get power stones and now mana staffs to compensate for ST and DX has a diminishing return, while high IQ spells can make a big difference outside of combat, and sometimes even in combat. Most of the uses for ST and DX are not used by a wizard in a good party. DX is needed to hit, with spells, and ST to survive a stray arrow or an odd attack from comparatively low level minions that outnumber/outflank the party's tanks. Fatigue could possibly be a factor in some adventures, but not that often a bottle neck compared to actually using it for casting spells. And if you don't have many talents DX as talent/saves stat will not be used either. But with a high IQ you can to some rolls, avoid being cheated and lied to, etc.

So it's not a minor thing to move 1 out of 5 uses for ST to the "lesser" stat IQ that is underpowered anyways. This might be so in your campaigns, but in my campaigns all three stats are used equally from the start. Sure I have seen ST16 fighters and IQ16 wizards, but not the other way around. But usually characters stay within the bounds of 9-13 with maybe 1 stat outside that range, maybe. And that is a good thing. I would rather see more uses for ST for wizards, maybe wearing cloth without penalties at ST14 or Toughness at normal talent cost for Wizards. Or a regain mana faster if you have a high ST talent, Like Constitution(IQ8) Prereq ST13 that gets you 1 fatigue per 10m.

In the same way, would I like to see some more fighting talents at higher IQ levels like Eyes in the Back, Improved Sweep, Stand Firm, Military Formations, Aggressive Defence (you can attack at DX-6 when defending). So Heroes that go all out fighting still can make use of all IQ levels and not only Expertise. Maybe even some weapons (both 1-h and 2-h) for high ST to encourage that. High DX is already ok since you might need it for initiative, talents, high saves, armor penalties and when fighting experts. In short more options so that any combination of stats can be somewhat viable in a party, but in different ways. So more options, not less. More variety, not more cookie-cutter builds.

But that is just my opinion on how to improve the one thing that makes TFT great and unique. I don't know of any other game that tries and succeeds in making all stats almost equally important for all builds. Just the possibility of a wizard with IQ as his lowest stat is innovative and interesting. Since magic talent in Cidri doesn't come with a high IQ guarantee there should be plenty of IQ8 wizards out there. :-)
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Old 08-01-2019, 12:13 AM   #56
Shoug
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: IQ to power spells

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg View Post
I love TFT, mainly for one thing; The need for all three stats, no matter what character you want to make. And there are viable options with all stats high or low. I truly hate systems that have one stat per class or archetype. IF that is the case why have stats at all? If we let wizards cast off of IQ for mana, why not let them roll vs IQ to hit? If we did we would limit most starting Wizards to IQ 14+ and most would probably be 8/8/16 or 9/8/15. Incredibly boring.

But, that said I do like the idea of specializing in a few spells or just one spell and have others as back up. My suggestion would be that you should be able to pick a spell at the current IQ level +2 a second time and then again at IQ+3. Savant and Sorceror work fine as descriptors. The reason for increasing the IQ level would be that the low IQ spells would see more use, since they could be taken twice or three times. A little bit like the old descriptions that you could cast a spell below your IQ with less sound, movements, etc.
I love your style. But I would like to mention that, in my system, there was a kind of natural force that encouraged your Savant and Sorcerous spells to be low IQ level ones. It was that, once your IQ fatigue caused you to have lower IQ than a spell required, you would lose the ability to cast that spell. So you'd want the spells you chose to be able to fatigue your IQ in order to cast to be *at least* a couple IQ points lower in requirement than your actual IQ. That way, you'd be able to power the spell "Sorcerously" a few times instead of just once.
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Old 08-01-2019, 12:22 AM   #57
Shoug
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: IQ to power spells

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Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck View Post
By "liberalize" the Mana Staff spell, it would have to move down to IQ 8, replacing the original Staff spell altogether, if the intent was to benefit starting wizards. I'd let the storage limit be the wizard's full IQ from the start, and it would be raised a point then whenever IQ increased 1 point later. (This whole "tax-shelter" treatment of XP seems a little gamey to me!). And I'd simplify the recharge to 1:1. If a 12 mana Staff was empty, the wizard could put 12 ST into it at the rate of 1 per 15 minutes, the same rate as she'd be recovering her fatigue. So 3 hours later the Staff would be recharged, and the wizard would still be at the ST she had when she started recharging (no net gain over whatever fatigue she had to start). You'd never recharge it during combat, nor when you were in a hurry to get your own ST back up, and you wouldn't always get the chance to do so depending on the campaign game. One might allow that the wizard could sleep with the Staff in hand, recharging it as she dreamed, but again she wouldn't be recovering any of her own fatigue until the Staff finished drawing on her.
I like the idea of "liberalising" the Manastaff, but I have a different idea for how to go about it. One that's a little less powerful than yours. I would have all Staffs be Manastaff, and rechargable at a 1:1 ST:MANA rate. But I would make the maximum mana capacity of the staff equal to your IQ/(5-StaffLVL) rounded down. This would mean that a level one staff would have a maximum capacity of one quarter of your IQ. Staff level 5 would override this rule and set your Staff's mana capacity to 2IQ.
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Old 08-02-2019, 12:12 AM   #58
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: IQ to power spells

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Originally Posted by Shoug View Post
I like the idea of "liberalising" the Manastaff, but I have a different idea for how to go about it. One that's a little less powerful than yours. I would have all Staffs be Manastaff, and rechargable at a 1:1 ST:MANA rate. But I would make the maximum mana capacity of the staff equal to your IQ/(5-StaffLVL) rounded down. This would mean that a level one staff would have a maximum capacity of one quarter of your IQ. Staff level 5 would override this rule and set your Staff's mana capacity to 2IQ.
That works for me.

Anything that lessens the need of a starting wizard to pick ST over IQ is good with me.
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