Wee Celestials And Other Spinnoffs From Wishlist Thread

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

I believe the theory is that the unFledged are "too widdle" to be noticed. Don't ask me how a 7-Force demon is different from a 7-Force reliever. >_>

(And, yes, bearing in mind that there's stuff in the APG/IPG -- what more need be said? (And, again, I am open to persuasion; I made O_o eyes about a Book of Tethers, but was pretty pleased with the result.))

Easy. Angels are a 'natural' part of the Symphony, they're just in the wrong place, while demons are 'unnatural' by their very nature, so the Symphony cuts them less slack.

[Omegonthesane]

Originally Posted by DAlillama

Easy. Angels are a 'natural' part of the Symphony, they're just in the wrong place, while demons are 'unnatural' by their very nature, so the Symphony cuts them less slack.

Except that technically a 3-Force Seraph (entirely possible through very, very botched soul combat) is "bigger" in this sense than a 6-force demonling. Hence why I would have tied it to Fledging rather than size - it's one thing to be a floaty incorporeal thing in the Symphony, quite another to be playing one of its instruments (angels) or vuvuzela-ing your own off-key tune (demons).

[JCD]

Originally Posted by Omegonthesane

I don't believe it ever explains why relievers and imps/gremlins are an exception to the rule about celestial forms being booted back to the celestial realm or Limbo after a certain length of time without Vessel-ifying. Forced to come up with an explanation, I would say something about how Fledging draws the Symphony's notice and annoyance, but I'd be more inclined to just drop that rule if it requires special exceptions to let the unfledged go around not having Vessels. The local table already had before I joined it.

How about this as a theory?

Relievers and Imps don't get booted upstairs automatically because they don't have any corporeal forces (Making stuff up). They are not expected to interact with the Symphony so they aren't given anything to interact with the Symphony...and so the Symphony can safely ignore them. (La la la! You aren't here!) This limits what they can do but as observers and manipulators of things like dreams etc, they can still have low key subtle influence (Yes, I know this ignores their diaphragm despoiling duties, but it's a work in progress)

Theory 2: There is a threshold on corp forces which causes them to be booted upstairs. One corp and they are okay, though uncomfortable. More then that (i.e. into PC rang) and they need a deep Reality Suit called a vessel.

Okay, if you don't like that one, how about this

Theory Three: Celestial Imps and Relievers can only be found in tethers. The emanations of Heaven/Hell allow them to bob along on the fringe of reality with no problem. Any of them who want to travel need a vessel. This means that the tether will have dozens of 'helpers' but outside of it's influence, no. This also means that a Prince/Arch has a choice of spending a few hundred Essence to put a low grade moron of a spirit on the Earth, something they are not normally inclined to do... (those granted to the PCs are exceptions...and they are responsible for the results)

None of this is fully canon but explains a few things with a rules tweak or two.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by Omegonthesane

Hence why I would have tied it to Fledging rather than size - it's one thing to be a floaty incorporeal thing in the Symphony, quite another to be playing one of its instruments (angels) or vuvuzela-ing your own off-key tune (demons).

Maybe it's because I'm in the process of re-reading Harry Potter to Missy, but I kind of like this. It's "The Trace" in reverse. (For the non Potter-ites, The Trace is a spell on juvenile wizards that helps the Ministry of Magic enforce its ban on underage magic out of school, informing the Ministry any time magic is worked in the vicinity of a young wizard or witch. The spell breaks at age 17.)

In this case, there appears to be a Symphonic "Trace" that only comes into effect at maturity/Fledging. Maybe fledging involves a certain Symphonic theme that gets tied up in the new angel/demon's very being?

[JCD]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

Maybe it's because I'm in the process of re-reading Harry Potter to Missy, but I kind of like this. It's "The Trace" in reverse. (For the non Potter-ites, The Trace is a spell on juvenile wizards that helps the Ministry of Magic enforce its ban on underage magic out of school, informing the Ministry any time magic is worked in the vicinity of a young wizard or witch. The spell breaks at age 17.)

In this case, there appears to be a Symphonic "Trace" that only comes into effect at maturity/Fledging. Maybe fledging involves a certain Symphonic theme that gets tied up in the new angel/demon's very being?

Why isn't 'the Trace' linked to corporeal forces? Fledlgings have them, Celestial Relievers etc don't...unless they have vessels, in which case they do make noise.

[JCD]

I thought it was implied strongly that angels/demons could 'grow' their own forces with experience in life. Certainly no DP or even AA would 'grow' an underling into a threat to their existance (well, MAYBE an AA...) Thus, where do new DPs come from?

In fact, that was part of the point break: a Superior could give you a nice custom fit ultra efficient force for a 'mere' 10 CPs. If you 'grew your own' by upping each characteristic enough to grow, then you needed to pay 12.

We've had this discussion before.

[Omegonthesane]

Originally Posted by JCD

Why isn't 'the Trace' linked to corporeal forces? Fledlgings have them, Celestial Relievers etc don't...unless they have vessels, in which case they do make noise.

For a start, you are factually incorrect - every reliever and demonling I have seen statted has had Corporeal Forces, and in fact, IPG states outright that all imps and gremlins are required to have at least 1 Corporeal Force (and 1 of each of the other Forces) rather than sensibly going 0 Corp, 1 Eth, 2 Cel at their birth.

For another, while it's doubtless uncommon, I've personally witnessed an Elohite of Faith statted with 1 Corporeal Force, and personally played a Balseraph on a redemption quest who lost all his Corporeal Forces to protecting other celestials in soul combat. If I'm reading you right, you are advocating that the trace should solely notice Corporeal Forces, rather than total Forces or the presence of a Resonance - and thus by such logic, neither of these PCs would have a problem going around without a Vessel.

Originally Posted by JCD

I thought it was implied strongly that angels/demons could 'grow' their own forces with experience in life. Certainly no DP or even AA would 'grow' an underling into a threat to their existance (well, MAYBE an AA...) Thus, where do new DPs come from?

A combination of old DPs underestimating the threat their minion represents, other DPs being willing to help the upstart destroy his master, and Lucifer being able to afford to see the big picture because no single mere DP threatens him.

Originally Posted by JCD

In fact, that was part of the point break: a Superior could give you a nice custom fit ultra efficient force for a 'mere' 10 CPs. If you 'grew your own' by upping each characteristic enough to grow, then you needed to pay 12.

We've had this discussion before.

If it's happened before, I wasn't there for it.

I don't like the points break because of what it encourages people to do in-game with their XP, saving it up and thereby being less capable and thereby earning themselves less screen time until they get the whole 10, not for any kind of in character reason (because XP is an entirely OOC mechanic, your character is unable to ever know they have unspent XP), but because it saves them 2 XP compared to getting a Force the slow way.

[JCD]

Originally Posted by Omegonthesane

For a start, you are factually incorrect - every reliever and demonling I have seen statted has had Corporeal Forces, and in fact, IPG states outright that all imps and gremlins are required to have at least 1 Corporeal Force (and 1 of each of the other Forces) rather than sensibly going 0 Corp, 1 Eth, 2 Cel at their birth.

For another, while it's doubtless uncommon, I've personally witnessed an Elohite of Faith statted with 1 Corporeal Force, and personally played a Balseraph on a redemption quest who lost all his Corporeal Forces to protecting other celestials in soul combat. If I'm reading you right, you are advocating that the trace should solely notice Corporeal Forces, rather than total Forces or the presence of a Resonance - and thus by such logic, neither of these PCs would have a problem going around without a Vessel.

Hmm. You must have missed the part where I stated that it would require a few rule tweaks. (Hint: the phrase 'Making stuff up') I am trying to rationalize a game point which was not explained adequately and that means some things might need changing. If you want imps and relievers to be able to stay celestial on Earth without time limits, then you (the GM) need to explain why. So far we've voided the size theory. Now you don't like any of mine either. Oh well.

You do raise a good point regarding the odd 'full sized' Celestial who is Imp 'sized' corporeally. I hadn't considered that and I shall think about it more.

I would rule that the crippled Celestial who lost all his/her corporeal forces could NOT manifest on Earth at all until they recovered at least one Corporeal force. What is a Corporeal Force for if not to manipulate the reality of the Corporeal Realm? There are no 'hooks' for a vessel to plug into a vessel (to use a metaphor). 0 STR and 0 DEX means something.

Originally Posted by Omegonthesane

I don't like the points break because of what it encourages people to do in-game with their XP, saving it up and thereby being less capable and thereby earning themselves less screen time until they get the whole 10, not for any kind of in character reason (because XP is an entirely OOC mechanic, your character is unable to ever know they have unspent XP), but because it saves them 2 XP compared to getting a Force the slow way.

Okay. You're wed to the IPG where an Imp MUST have a corp force...but you don't like this rule. Shrug.

But the screen time argument is silly in two ways. I, as a PC, can save XP till the cows come home and unless the DP/AA (GM) decides I can get a force, I cannot get a force, at least with the point break, the same way I can't count on distinctions, attunements, Songs or rites being a 'right'.

Additionally, you seem to be arguing against character savings per se rather then simply forces. What if I was saving my CPs for a really good magic sword or other artifact? Is my quest to get the power/influence/materials for the Magic Wonkus REALLY keeping me from 'screen time' or is it your personal foible that you'd just as soon have the players spend their CPs as soon as they get it?

[Omegonthesane]

Originally Posted by JCD

Hmm. You must have missed the part where I stated that it would require a few rule tweaks. (Hint: the phrase 'Making stuff up') I am trying to rationalize a game point which was not explained adequately and that means some things might need changing. If you want imps and relievers to be able to stay celestial on Earth without time limits, then you (the GM) need to explain why. So far we've voided the size theory. Now you don't like any of mine either. Oh well.

You are correct in that I kind of dislike your suggested fixes - largely because they require tweaking the actual game mechanics, and were posted after my own suggested fix ("having a resonance makes the Symphony take notice") which requires no game mechanical changes whatsoever.

Buried in the fluff text - well, at the start of a paragraph, but still easy to miss if you're skipping to mechanics - is the line that imps, gremlins, and relievers are only sent with "a specific purpose" and "must perform their duty to maintain their connection to the corporeal realm". As this is not something that Resonance-capable beings have, it could be expanded on as being a strong enough link to prevent celestials being kicked upstairs.

Originally Posted by JCD

I would rule that the crippled Celestial who lost all his/her corporeal forces could NOT manifest on Earth at all until they recovered at least one Corporeal force. What is a Corporeal Force for if not to manipulate the reality of the Corporeal Realm? There are no 'hooks' for a vessel to plug into a vessel (to use a metaphor). 0 STR and 0 DEX means something.

They couldn't get far from a Tether, but there are (apparently) canon examples of Seneschals who hover in cel-form in their Tether continuously, which would imply their corporeal forces aren't really being put to use.

Originally Posted by JCD

Okay. You're wed to the IPG where an Imp MUST have a corp force...but you don't like this rule. Shrug.

I was pointing out a rule you were breaking with your suggestion, because I was under the impression that you weren't actively trying to rewrite game mechanics with the fix.

Originally Posted by JCD

But the screen time argument is silly in two ways. I, as a PC, can save XP till the cows come home and unless the DP/AA (GM) decides I can get a force, I cannot get a force, at least with the point break, the same way I can't count on distinctions, attunements, Songs or rites being a 'right'.

If I've been doing things for "the boss" that justify me getting XP, given that the kind of adventures worthy of actual gameplay are already IMO above and beyond the day to day call of duty, the way I've got used to playing, the GM needs an exceedingly good reason to not give out publicly available Songs and attunements once the XP is earned. Distinctions I will give you, as they're meant to be for truly exceptional service, and more to the point have no XP component whatsoever, but unless my character's outright sabotaged the mission (against orders...) I'd seriously leave the table due to creative differences if a GM required an exceptional performance to justify buying Attunements and non-secret Songs.

Originally Posted by JCD

Additionally, you seem to be arguing against character savings per se rather then simply forces. What if I was saving my CPs for a really good magic sword or other artifact? Is my quest to get the power/influence/materials for the Magic Wonkus REALLY keeping me from 'screen time' or is it your personal foible that you'd just as soon have the players spend their CPs as soon as they get it?

I am arguing against a mechanic that causes one ability (having a whole Force) to be buyable at two different costs (12 points or 10 points), dependent entirely on, quite frankly, GM pity. If I'm going to be giving RP rewards, it should be for entertaining the table OOC, even if that means acting directly contrary to what would logically advance your character in-universe.

It's worth noting, the actual rules say nothing about your Superior even having involvement in you buying a whole Force for 10 points - only that, for some reason, you can get it cheaper if you save up points OOC rather than building up power IC.

What do you think is added by the difference in cost, that is worth preserving despite the fact it encourages fine detail accountancy? Why should XP, an entirely OOC resource, be able to be discounted by strictly defined IC actions?

[JCD]

This is the least of the rules changes I would suggest. I'm not sure I fully understand what you mean by your explanation of the 'trigger' of fledging brings about, unless you mean that initially being given a vessl 'sensitizes' the Symphony to the fact that, yes, there is an unnatural being here much like an infection needs to be tagged by T cells.*

Your discussion of Celestial Seneschals reinforces my third theory of Widdle guys.

I personally like the dual system of Force gathering. Case in point Furfur. Even assuming exemplary service, would Belial keep adding Forces to an overly ambitious Servitor? Would another DP waste a force on a maybe like Furfur? More importantly, would someone like Furfur trust another DP to jigger with his innards?+ With this dual method, it allows both quick/obvious and slow/sneaky advancement. Plus it helps a player who has some rather uncomfortable bits of discord hidden while not limiting him much in advancing his power except for a few CPs. ("Um...Reginald, why exactly do you have this murderous discord...?") I see it as making things more flexible. Your mileage may vary.




*This raises a bunch of other questions. Would an infant angel grown up disturb they Symphony. If Superiors gave 'normal bodies' to Celestials, would the Symphony recognize that fact? (I am partial to this in part because I envisioned the downfall of the Grigori to their being given 'normal' non sterile and less biochemically controllable bodies initially).

+In one of my games, a vessel 'gifted' by Fleurity to a Free Lilim came with a prepackaged Discord of Heroin Addiction...just to keep her in the fold so to speak. Since she didn't distinctly require a 'clean' vessel as payment, well...life is rough for the Free.