Origins or Design Base

[Orlin]

Bal, if I remember correctly, is a negative Hebrew prefix, so Balseraph would be something like anti-Seraph.

IIRC, Ba'al, Bal and Bel are all actually Hebrew prefixes that denote mastery or dominion over a specific skill or area. "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me, for I am The Lord thy God." In this fashion, "Ba'al-zebub (sometimes "Belzebub") would be the "Lord of Flies," "Bel-lial ("Belial") is the "Lord of Lies," and "Ba'al-Hadad" (Hadar, Adad, Adar, this one gets a lot of different spellings) is the "Lord of Storms."

In a strange twist of events, these "Demons" of Hebrew Lore were actually worshiped by other cultures - generally those that would end up becoming the enemies of God's People. Babylon, Sumeria, Mesopotamia, Assria, etc. This is one of the reasons why the Ethereal Guide can sometimes leave me confused - because the easiest way to get a demon is to find a false God. John Milton exploits this in Paradise Lost, where he lists several ancient Roman Gods as the companions of Lucifer (strangely enough, after invoking the Muses. Weird, right?)

[Matthias Wasser]

"Ishim" ("manlike beings") probably works as a substitute for "Mercurians."

Originally Posted by Orlin

In a strange twist of events, these "Demons" of Hebrew Lore were actually worshiped by other cultures - generally those that would end up becoming the enemies of God's People. Babylon, Sumeria, Mesopotamia, Assria, etc.

This isn't so much a strange twist on events as standard theological practice. The Titans, for instance, were probably the pantheon worshipped before the Dodekathon, and thus later characterized as monsters; "Asuras" are the name for good spirits and "Devas" for bad spirits in one region, while the reverse holds for another; standard Western depictions of the Devil reappropriated Pan.

This is one of the reasons why the Ethereal Guide can sometimes leave me confused - because the easiest way to get a demon is to find a false God. John Milton exploits this in Paradise Lost, where he lists several ancient Roman Gods as the companions of Lucifer (strangely enough, after invoking the Muses. Weird, right?)

I like the setting a lot more if you scrap Ethereals and start with the assumption that all paganism is demonolatry (and that even some of the characters worshipped in Divine religions are re-appropriated demons - such that the original Yahweh was a demon named Ialdabaoth, and so on.)

[ISNorden]

Originally Posted by Matthias Wasser

"Ishim" ("manlike beings") probably works as a substitute for "Mercurians."

You and I are on the same wavelength there: The name Ishim describes both the Friends' appearance and their resonance for human relationships. (Technically, ish also implies maleness in Biblical Hebrew...but when angels take "ordinary" human form in the Bible, it's inevitably male. Using a gendered Biblical name feels more traditional than using a pagan planetary name from Dante's Paradiso, though!)

I like the setting a lot more if you scrap Ethereals and start with the assumption that all paganism is demonolatry (and that even some of the characters worshipped in Divine religions are re-appropriated demons - such that the original Yahweh was a demon named Ialdabaoth, and so on.)

Granted, I like my angels and demons to feel more traditional than the Rules As Written make them: that's why I changed several Archangels and Princes in my campaign. On the other hand...I also love the idea of Ethereals too much to scrap them. (Not just the obviously pagan ones, but also the Ethereals created through popular culture and fiction; the idea that human beliefs can come to life in the "space" between Heaven and Hell gives mortals an underrated edge in the War.)

Despite what some TV preachers claim, I have a hard time seeing Lucifer behind Mr. Tumnus, Bilbo Baggins, or Kermit the Frog. Ethereals who don't consider themselves gods, who don't want to be worshiped, and who don't promote any demonic Words surely can't be demons in disguise? If they exist at all, they must be something different from celestials; and I'm glad the game has rules for them.

[Matthias Wasser]

Originally Posted by ISNorden

Granted, I like my angels and demons to feel more traditional than the Rules As Written make them: that's why I changed several Archangels and Princes in my campaign.

May I ask what changes?

On the other hand...I also love the idea of Ethereals too much to scrap them. (Not just the obviously pagan ones, but also the Ethereals created through popular culture and fiction; the idea that human beliefs can come to life in the "space" between Heaven and Hell gives mortals an underrated edge in the War.)

For me it's a matter of focus. When I run WoD I don't like to mix the gamelines, which seem thematically coherent on their own and much less together. I loved Mike Carey's "Lucifer" but it seemed visibly weaker every time it strayed from Abrahamic mythology. I wouldn't want Kermit the Frog showing up any more than I would in a game of Vampire: the Requiem. Tastes differ, of course.

[ISNorden]

Originally Posted by Matthias Wasser

May I ask what changes [to the Superiors]?

I've listed them in a PDF file for new players' convenience; you can download the whole thing here--

http://innomineheaven.50webs.com/cha...iors_guide.pdf

For me it's a matter of focus. . . . I loved Mike Carey's "Lucifer" but it seemed visibly weaker every time it strayed from Abrahamic mythology. I wouldn't want Kermit the Frog showing up any more than I would in a game of Vampire: the Requiem. Tastes differ, of course.

My own campaign presupposes a three-sided War, at the very least. Some Ethereals may still support God or Lucifer, but the majority have learned to see Humanity as a force in its own right--a force with the right to its own stories and its own creative freedom. Some former angels and demons have even embraced that viewpoint, becoming Gray Celestials. (If the Marches had been more active in Lilith's earthly lifetime, she might have refused Lucifer's offer and become Queen of the Dreamshades instead...but I decided against making the Third Side that powerful!)

As far as pop-culture Ethereals appearing in my game, it happens mainly as the occasional bit of comic relief or random weirdness. (A roll of 333 in my game is an Ethereal Intervention...which can mean anything from a pagan Soldier getting a lucky break, to a ghost haunting a crime scene, to an irrelevant memory obsessing some character at odd moments.)

[Orlin]

I really liked the idea of renaming the Mercurian choir as the "Ishim," as well, but the problem that I had was that it just isn't colloquial. I agree with both of you, [ISNorden and Matthias], in that you couldn't ask for a better description of them.

Alas, I am never satisfied. I want a cool prefix, but it has to make sense -- and alas again, I cannot speak, read or write fluent hebrew. So like.. Meleishim might mean "King-ish Manlike Beings," and Balishim might mean, "Lordly Manlike Beings," but chances are that when you put a prefix (especially a bitten-off prefix) in front of a word that is authentically Judaic, you don't actually get the word you were looking for. A golcommode is not an English word for a golden toilet, no matter how you fluff up the pronunciation or how many apostrophes you stick in between the letters.

Okay...I need to start using quotes. Sorry, I'm tired. Just got off work.

I like the setting a lot more if you scrap Ethereals and start with the assumption that all paganism is demonolatry

Initially, I had intended to take this route with my first In Nomine game, for most of the same reasons you listed. I might still -- I'm just not sure where the heck the Ethereal's *fit* into everything else, you know? I feel like making the game a three-sided war takes from some of the headiness and drama of it all being a giant war between heaven and hell, and I really don't like some of the culturally iconic dream spirits.

But...I just got the Ethereal Player's Guide (SO awesome that they put it in PDF!!) and now my curiosity is starting to come directly into conflict with my initial distaste for the dreamlands -- I still have no clue how to portray the setting that is the Marches in my games, but there are things that I really like about the EPG.

For one, I think that the conflict between "The World is a Symphony" and "The World is a Tapestry" is a very intriguing one. I'm curious to see what would happen if a demon managed to take advantage of the Ethereal "threads" or the worship rites (to draw a parallel: if ISNorden is interested in making "Gray Celestials," suffice it to say that I'm curious to see what happens when you twist the game so that you have "Black Ethereals.")

Also, reading this new book, [999 AD - the writing could be a little better, but the ideas are pretty solid, as is the authors knowledge of mythology] has given me some very interesting ideas for the Purity Crusade...which I never really originally liked.

What if, for example, the Greek Gods were actually consumed (as in, spiritually cannibalized) by the Roman Gods, and when the Romans began to persecute the Jews, the angels took notice? What if, after the death of Jeshua of Nazareth, Uriel was so moved by the resounding faith of these new "Christians" that he decided to take up arms against the deities that were oppressing them? And what if, after slaughtering and stamping the Roman Gods out of existence (as was mirrored in History when Christianity began to consume Rome), he just didn't stop?

In 999 AD (the book), everything from the Aesir to the Fair Folk to the Angels are real. Satan harnesses the collective consciousness and fear of the people who believe that the millennium is The End to "kickstart" the Apocalypse before the appointed hour by casting his own players in some perverted prophetic roles (as far as I can tell, he's using Loki as the Antichrist, and Loki is in turn using Lucifer to kickstart Ragnarok; it's good stuff.) It kind of makes me wonder: how epic would it be if the Hindi Gods, who are still actively being worshiped, struck a deal with the Infernals during the advent of 2012?

(and that even some of the characters worshipped in Divine religions are re-appropriated demons - such that the original Yahweh was a demon named Ialdabaoth, and so on.)

I don't like this. I'm all about individual tastes...but how do you reconcile Yahweh being a demon? Was there a God before Jesus? Doesn't that throw off the idea that Jesus still actively prayed to and worshiped The Father? Or that Jesus was a Jew and the Jewish people worshiped Yahweh? Did everyone born before Jesus just go straight to Hell because there was no God to worship? I mean, how hard is it to give someone the fate, "Die worshiping a demon?" I could see making Allah into a demon (I wouldn't *like* it, but I could see it.) I can't see it working if you make Yahweh into a demon.

That being said, I'm very curious to figure out how you made it work!

[Matthias Wasser]

Originally Posted by Orlin

I really liked the idea of renaming the Mercurian choir as the "Ishim," as well, but the problem that I had was that it just isn't colloquial. I agree with both of you, [ISNorden and Matthias], in that you couldn't ask for a better description of them.

Alas, I am never satisfied. I want a cool prefix, but it has to make sense -- and alas again, I cannot speak, read or write fluent hebrew. So like.. Meleishim might mean "King-ish Manlike Beings," and Balishim might mean, "Lordly Manlike Beings," but chances are that when you put a prefix (especially a bitten-off prefix) in front of a word that is authentically Judaic, you don't actually get the word you were looking for.

"Ishim" appears in Maimonides' hierarchy, and so has tradition behind it - although "Hashmalim" and "Erelim" are more euphonic.

I don't like this. I'm all about individual tastes...but how do you reconcile Yahweh being a demon? Was there a God before Jesus? Doesn't that throw off the idea that Jesus still actively prayed to and worshiped The Father? Or that Jesus was a Jew and the Jewish people worshiped Yahweh? Did everyone born before Jesus just go straight to Hell because there was no God to worship? I mean, how hard is it to give someone the fate, "Die worshiping a demon?" I could see making Allah into a demon (I wouldn't *like* it, but I could see it.) I can't see it working if you make Yahweh into a demon.

That being said, I'm very curious to figure out how you made it work!

Divine religions are Divine because they're organized around worship of the Symphony as such, even if in a reified or anthropomorphized form, rather than of contingent beings. ("God" is a metaphor for the same thing "the Symphony" is a metaphor for, just tailored to the psychology of men rather than angels.) But they got there by angels socially engineering existing practices into a more acceptable form, and then using those as vehicles to wipe out the religions they hadn't transformed. The Axial Age was a period of intense Angelic offensive under the banner of monotheism, just as the modern age is one of Demonic offense under the banner of liberalism.

[Orlin]

Ishim" appears in Maimonides' hierarchy, and so has tradition behind it - although "Hashmalim" and "Erelim" are more euphonic.

Yes, but neither of them fit quite so well. Hashmalim ("Lightning-like ones," according to the Examiner) might describe the Wheels, but I think Ophanim (I like the "ph," but the "f" works just as well) is a far more apt description of their choir. There was a time when I thought about using the name of the Erelim ("Valiant Ones") in place of the name for the Malakim, and then using the name, "Malakhim" to describe the Mercurians, but once I got to playing I think that the word "Malakhim" just reminded me too much of In Nomine's black-winged warrior angels. Ishim is the best fit. It just isn't as euphonic (good word, by the way) as I'd like it to be.

If you were interested in Maimonides' hierarchy, might I suggest you check out the Philosophe Occulte? I don't have the link, but I copy-pasted a passage from it and made a chart using his descriptions. Wikipedia, as always, has different (and probably more accurate) translations of the names of demons provided.

One of them, "Gamchicoth," looked like a really good name for the Djinn. It means, "Disturbers of Souls." After looking through several of the descriptions of the other demons (including "The Shells," "The Incendiaries," and "The Two Headed Ones," -- all curiously close to the shedim, calabites and balseraph), I think they fit best.

The thing is, it's not euphonic. Gamchicothim? How do I pretty that up? Not that they'd *care.* On the outside.

[Matthias Wasser]

Originally Posted by Orlin

Yes, but neither of them fit quite so well.

Yes, that's true.

One of them, "Gamchicoth," looked like a really good name for the Djinn. It means, "Disturbers of Souls." After looking through several of the descriptions of the other demons (including "The Shells," "The Incendiaries," and "The Two Headed Ones," -- all curiously close to the shedim, calabites and balseraph), I think they fit best.

The thing is, it's not euphonic. Gamchicothim? How do I pretty that up? Not that they'd *care.* On the outside.

I forget who suggested "Kynoi," which both means "hounds" and is the root word for "cynic," but that's my current favorite.

(Comedy option: "Balcherubs.")

[ISNorden]

Originally Posted by Matthias Wasser

Yes, that's true.

I forget who suggested "Kynoi," which both means "hounds" and is the root word for "cynic," but that's my current favorite.

(Comedy option: "Balcherubs.")

I'm the one who suggested "Kynoi" as an alternative for "Djinn" when the topic came up earlier this year. It may not be traditional, but it's a good name for predatory beast-demons and it's proper Greek. (Still a Biblical language, plus I seem to recall a passage in Revelation about nonliteral "dogs" being excluded from Heaven. Score!)


"Gamichoth" is already a (feminine) plural, judging by my smattering of Hebrew. The correct singular I can't find without a dictionary, but the Anglicized "gamespeak singular" (Gamichite) feels too awkward to catch on with IN players. If the Djinn Band needs renaming for clarity's sake...the new name should be easy to spell and pronounce, and unlikely to be confused with some Ethereal species.