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Old 10-04-2009, 12:31 PM   #1
rlbeaver
 
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Default [Question] Combat turn overlap

After admitting to myself that I'll need to relearn GURPS in order to GM it, I've reread the books (mostly, skipped things that won't or will not come up a lot). In doing so, I think I may have been misunderstanding the combat flow. Or I may just be over thinking it...

I'm a little confused on the turn overlap...essentially, when are the effects of the action applied, especially with regards to spells? In other words

Combatant A and combatant B are fighting hand to hand. Combatant A goes first...

If combatant A attacks, hits, and damages combatant B, does the effects of shock penalty be applied to combatant B's immediate upcoming action or action afterward?

Combatant A is casting a 1 second spell on combatant B. Combatant A goes first...

Since the time to cast the spell is one second, when does the effect of the spell affect combatant B?
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Old 10-04-2009, 12:51 PM   #2
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Default Re: [Question] Combat turn overlap

Quote:
Originally Posted by obatron View Post
After admitting to myself that I'll need to relearn GURPS in order to GM it, I've reread the books (mostly, skipped things that won't or will not come up a lot). In doing so, I think I may have been misunderstanding the combat flow. Or I may just be over thinking it...

I'm a little confused on the turn overlap...essentially, when are the effects of the action applied, especially with regards to spells? In other words

Combatant A and combatant B are fighting hand to hand. Combatant A goes first...

If combatant A attacks, hits, and damages combatant B, does the effects of shock penalty be applied to combatant B's immediate upcoming action or action afterward?
I think it affects him immediately and wears off after his action (so B acts with a shock penalty, A acts again (but B has no shock penalty), then B acts without a shock penalty). The FAQ talks about it here. Edit I just reworded this to be consistent with the FAQ.

Quote:
Combatant A is casting a 1 second spell on combatant B. Combatant A goes first...

Since the time to cast the spell is one second, when does the effect of the spell affect combatant B?
In 3rd edition GURPS, it would begin at the start of A's next turn. But under the new rules, it takes effect immediately. The FAQ talks about it here.
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Last edited by Polydamas; 10-04-2009 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 10-04-2009, 12:52 PM   #3
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Default Re: [Question] Combat turn overlap

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Originally Posted by obatron View Post

If combatant A attacks, hits, and damages combatant B, does the effects of shock penalty be applied to combatant B's immediate upcoming action or action afterward?
Actually it applies immediately, which may be before either of the way you've got it conceptualized (this matters is cases where B might have to make a roll on somebody else's turn), and lasts until (Edit oops - checked the text lasts until the beginning of your second following turn).

I'm pretty sure there's a clearer description in one of the FAQs, but the key concept is when the term is used properly (and sometimes it is misused as a synonym for second, though 4e is much better about that) GURPS turns have no duration. Turn is used in the normal English sense, and is personal to each individual, not to label a specific slice of (game) time. There is nothing preventing character A from having several turns before character B gets one.

A good visualization tool is to imagine handing around a single actual object that marks who's turn it currently is. Your turn begins when you get it, and ends when you hand it to the next person. Any effect using turns in its duration description should tell you whether it lasts until the beginning or end of a specific person's turn. If it doesn't then its not described right.
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Old 10-04-2009, 03:37 PM   #4
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Default Re: [Question] Combat turn overlap

Contary to many other games, in GURPS there is no generic turn. Each combat turn is the turn of one precise character. And since the turn of one character ends just when his next turn begins, that means that turns do overlap. So, during B's turn, A's turn is not over. A's turn will only end when A's next turn will start.

What does it concretely mean?

When A hits B, it is A's turn. If B didn't choose any maneuver that forbid a defense roll during his turn (just before A's attack), he can try to defend. Suppose that he misses his defense roll.

A's damage affects B immediately. If it is a major wound, B will have to roll immediately to know whether he falls down. If B's hit points reach a deathly level, he will have to roll immediately to know whether he is dead.

But the shock will only affect B when he will take a new maneuver, i.e. when he will do something else than defending, since defense are not affected by shock. Likewise, B will only have to roll to know whether he falls unconscious at the very begining of his next turn.

Now, for magic, the spell begins at the begining of the spell caster's turn and ends at the end of his turn (not at the target's turns). So if A must concentrate X turns to throw a magic spell that last for Y turns, for instance, he will have to spend X full turns with the concentrate maneuver and, the spell will be cast at the begining of his next turn and will affect the target untill the end of his Y next turn - without taking into account the turns of the targets.

Hoping this will help and, above all, that I have really understood the turn sequence!

;-)
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Old 10-04-2009, 03:50 PM   #5
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Default Re: [Question] Combat turn overlap

Okay, I did it right when I GM'd 3rd edition and I was over thinking it when reading 4th ed.

Thanks for the feedback.
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Old 10-04-2009, 05:52 PM   #6
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Default Re: [Question] Combat turn overlap

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Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
A's damage affects B immediately. If it is a major wound, B will have to roll immediately to know whether he falls down. If B's hit points reach a deathly level, he will have to roll immediately to know whether he is dead.

But the shock will only affect B when he will take a new maneuver, i.e. when he will do something else than defending, since defense are not affected by shock. Likewise, B will only have to roll to know whether he falls unconscious at the very begining of his next turn.

Now, for magic, the spell begins at the begining of the spell caster's turn and ends at the end of his turn (not at the target's turns). So if A must concentrate X turns to throw a magic spell that last for Y turns, for instance, he will have to spend X full turns with the concentrate maneuver and, the spell will be cast at the begining of his next turn and will affect the target untill the end of his Y next turn - without taking into account the turns of the targets.
Two things - I think the unconsctiousness roll needs to be taken immediately. After all, you can't defend if you're unconscious, dodge rolls are unlimited, so it might come up whether or not you can dodge attacker C's attack.

Secondly, I believe that 4e spells now take effect at the end of the last turn of Concentration, ergo before the actions of the next person in the turn sequence. In order to interrupt that last turn of Concentration (or the single turn, in the case of spells only taking 1 turn to cast), an opponent needs to have a Wait.
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Old 10-04-2009, 11:31 PM   #7
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Default Re: [Question] Combat turn overlap

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Two things - I think the unconsctiousness roll needs to be taken immediately. After all, you can't defend if you're unconscious, dodge rolls are unlimited, so it might come up whether or not you can dodge attacker C's attack.
Of course, but the rules are still clear: "make a HT roll at the start of your next turn" (Basic Set, Campaign, page 419). To my mind, there are some reasons for this rule...

1) "Realism": a turn is very quick (just one second) and collapsing take at least one second.
2) Defenses are pure reflexes; they don't require a lot of consciousness.
3) Ease of play: this is easier to make this HT roll at the very begining of the character's next turn than just after the attacker's hit.
4) And drama. It adds fun to the game: "I attack him! - But you feel very bad... Make a HT roll to see if you can do anything."

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Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
Secondly, I believe that 4e spells now take effect at the end of the last turn of Concentration,
You are right: Basic set, Characters, page 235: "At the end of the last second of concentration, make a success roll for the spell"...

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Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
ergo before the actions of the next person in the turn sequence. In order to interrupt that last turn of Concentration (or the single turn, in the case of spells only taking 1 turn to cast), an opponent needs to have a Wait.
... But remember that a turn' ends when the character chooses his next maneuver: "A given participant turn is the one-second time that stretches from when he chooses a maneuver until his next opportunity to select a maneuver.", Basic Set, Campaign, page 363.

So, to my mind - but I can be wrong - the roll is made just before A's next turn, which mean that even with a 1 second-concentration spell, he can be interrupted or suffer penalties caused by injuries or anything else during his foes actions.
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Old 10-05-2009, 01:17 AM   #8
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Default Re: [Question] Combat turn overlap

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So, to my mind - but I can be wrong - the roll is made just before A's next turn, which mean that even with a 1 second-concentration spell, he can be interrupted or suffer penalties caused by injuries or anything else during his foes actions.
That's the way it used to work in 3e. In 4e spells, especially 1-second spells, are changed to work just like other combat actions. You declare your action, roll the dice to see if you succeed, then let the next person take his turn. It's the end of your turn, at least the part of your turn that you control, though technically your turn continues until the beginning of your next turn; meaning your defenses are limited based on the maneuver you chose. In particular, see GURPS Magic, p. 7-8:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic, p. 7-8
Example: Patrick wants to cast Create Fire, a one-second spell. On his turn, Patrick says, “I’m concentrating on Create Fire.” This uses his entire turn. He then rolls the dice for his spell. If he succeeds, he creates fire – but either way, Patrick’s turn ends. Aidan, standing next to him, cannot try to disrupt the spell unless he took the Wait maneuver before Patrick’s turn began.
Note, particularly, the last sentence which was added to this example for Magic but did not appear in the Basic Set version of that example.
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Old 10-05-2009, 04:20 AM   #9
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Default Re: [Question] Combat turn overlap

I knew I could be wrong. Thank you for the correction.
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Old 10-05-2009, 08:53 AM   #10
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Default Re: [Question] Combat turn overlap

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Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
Of course, but the rules are still clear: "make a HT roll at the start of your next turn" (Basic Set, Campaign, page 419). To my mind, there are some reasons for this rule...

1) "Realism": a turn is very quick (just one second) and collapsing take at least one second.
2) Defenses are pure reflexes; they don't require a lot of consciousness.
3) Ease of play: this is easier to make this HT roll at the very begining of the character's next turn than just after the attacker's hit.
4) And drama. It adds fun to the game: "I attack him! - But you feel very bad... Make a HT roll to see if you can do anything."
Ah, I sit corrected. So, you can take a knockout blow that's destined to have you lapse into unconsciousness, but still dodge any number of attacks until you actually collapse. Interesting.

Remind me, what does it say about HT rolls vs. death? Same deal, or taken immediately? Not that dodging a few extra attacks makes as much difference if you're about to die, anyway... other than how much work the mortician has to do, I guess.
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