One objection I have with the Ethereal part....

[Moonsight]

I think the game should have been only been about Christianity and stay focused within but the very moment they started added in "Pagan gods" and throwing them into the Ethereal therefore making all the other mythologies other than Christianity illegitimate which is where it crosses the line for me which is a major problem in "All Myths are True" settings where Christianity usually rises the top and dominates all other mythologies which is seen in other related media like the WoD, The Supernatural TV series, etc.

Point is, is there a way or is it possible to delete the entire Ethereal realm and let the game just purely focus on Christianity like it's original aim is while other mythologies exist as totally independent entities outside the Christian paradigm? I mean having all Mythologies share equal legitimacy without one rising above the other (like for example Hinduism and such getting their own gamelines).

In short: It creates alot of problems if you center everything around Christianity and it just doesn't work.

[robkelk]

When I read the core rulebook for the first time, I was intrigued by how little it resembled Christian teachings, or Jewish teachings either. (At the time, I didn't know very much about Islam... but it doesn't resemble Islamic teachings either.) And that's one of the things I liked about it - the idea that fallible humans got things wrong about Heaven.

Yes, you can play without the Ethereal plane at all, although that marginalizes Blandine and Beleth. But I think the game is stronger for including the Marches and the multitude of gods found there. (And, no, IN doesn't resemble Shinto teachings, either...)

[Azel]

I liked how the game makes sure everyone's religion got it wrong on Earth and, here's the kicker, there's a huge amount of angels that don't really care about it anyway.

It's like a present: the packaging and item doesn't matter, it's the thought that counts.

But that's just canon. DMG gives plenty of ideas to tailor your own theosophical universe.

[Moonsight]

Originally Posted by robkelk

When I read the core rulebook for the first time, I was intrigued by how little it resembled Christian teachings, or Jewish teachings either. (At the time, I didn't know very much about Islam... but it doesn't resemble Islamic teachings either.) And that's one of the things I liked about it - the idea that fallible humans got things wrong about Heaven

Fact is, it's the Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum effect which they're still the same thing in the end since the game uses Christianity as it's roots. You can alter things a bit but it's still Christianity in the end.

Originally Posted by Azel

I liked how the game makes sure everyone's religion got it wrong on Earth and, here's the kicker, there's a huge amount of angels that don't really care about it anyway.

Of course that's the major problems I have the game actually that everything other than Christianity is wrong which is downright offensive towards other people of other religions especially those who know about cultural imperialism where it's not only Christian centric but also Western centric as well since Christianity seems to dominate the west and asserts it to it's conquered colonies and almost every game and every form of media I see that is made in the west is like that like I pointed out before.

Also this:

http://pastebin.com/HUmmfscB

Hinduism seems to have the distinction of being one of the msot widely worshipped religions on the planet, yet is consistently represented in media (particulalry in the fantasy/science fiction/supernatural genres) in a manner that is insensitive at the least. Off the top of my head, there is Indiana Jones which shows Hindus practicing human sacrifice among other things, ther is the tv show 'Supernatural' which has an episode where assorted ancient gods along with hindu gods are shown to be cannibalistic spirits, then are later killed easily by an abrahamic angel. The show Show 'Sanctuary' had Kali as a giant psychic crab, and Stargate had hindu gods and godesses as parasitic evil megalomaniac worms. A lot of modern media tends to represent Hinduism as if there aren't Hindus around to get upset by this sort of thing. Yes, Christianity is sometimes targetted, but rarely to the same degree as ancient religions or non-abrahamic religions.

Honestly, the msot suprising thing about this situation is that people are suprised that some Hindus might be upset about their religion being misrepresented (again).
Stargate used ALL forms of gods. Including but not limited to. Celtic, Egyptian, greek, Sumarian, babylonian, Irish (different then celtic), African, Slavic, Mayan, and of course chinese. Needless to say they covered their bases. Kinda makes it justified if they get everyone LOL. But we didn't exactly see a big cry of outrage against them did we? they did 218 episodes and how many spin offs? and of course the first movie was a great sci fi/fantasy original.

Also in stargate all original myths were left as being considered factual in the show. The story begins after all other historical event had factually occurred. Therefore, its kinda like fan fiction or a phyical continuation of what and where the gods all ended up. So, I don't know, its just creativity taken places. Its hard to take it serious.

Note however that there was only one abrahamic 'god' on the show, who doesn't even go by that name for most of his appearence, using the egyptian name of 'Sokar' instead of 'Satan'. They were very diplomatic with their handling of him, saying he was 'impersonating' Satan instead of being the source of the myths, note the difference. In the entire series, I can only remember one time where the implications of living in a galaxy full of god-impersonators for the abrahamic religions is questioned-at which point it is essentially dismissed with 'that's different' and never mentioned again. There aren't Free Jaffa trying to get members of the stargate program to 'renounce their false gods', wheras pagan gods are routinely questioned. While the Ori seem to fill the abrahamic gap thematically in many ways with their religion, they are never stated or implied that they are christians or that the Ori founded christianity. Even so, their hilarious technology of the obviously christian-inspired gods over the disorganised, impotent technological magpie pagan gods could be interpreted as beign some sort of symbolic victory of christiantiy over the old religions.

Basically, the legitimacy of the Abrahamic faiths is never seriously questioned, despite being exactly the sort of settign where one would expect it to be, whereas every pagan god bar the Asgard and lord Yu is debased and evil by assumption, including ones that are currently widely worshipped, the implication being that it's OK to portray Hindu gods in a bad light, but questioning the legitimacy of the Abrahamic religions is a no-go.
Very accurately put, but (other then my joke that its okay if you cover all your bases) I still stand by that its simply creativity put forward. There are plenty of instances where other religions are inaccurately assaulted. Your own point is that stargate had only a few instances where they went against the original lore. Since they are the stardard with which we are discussing many other medias actually fall far far short of this mark. If you think about it, there's about 16 books of the bible, of which only several are integral to the over all conception of the religion. Proving that tangential work has been arbitrated since the beginning of writing. All of which are positive and negative in nature. Its conjecture to assume since one instance is sited that a group is being targeted. nor multiple uses either since our world has grown small and originality in short supply.


The examples were Hindu because the article is about Hinduism, I would contest that it is not unique in being targetted, only in that it is the one of the largest religions that it is acceptable to target. I would also contest that it is 'simply creativity put forward', as when abrahamic religions are targetted, they are usually targetted more subtly. For example, Breath of Fire II used a lot of catholic symbolism and had an antagonist styled off of the abrahamic god, but they avoided using the names of christian figures directly, in this way, the viewer knows that it is inspired by christianity, but not intended to be representative of christianity. This allows for the exploration of traits of said religious structure without outright condemning it. In video games and TV shows however, Greek, Babylonian, Norse, Hindu etc gods are often used without any alteration of the structure of the religious pantheon or so much as a name change, thus these characters aren't intended to be inspired by their source material, but rather are intended to be representative of their source material, typically with some altercations to make them 'fit' better-usually at a cost of the meaning behind these gods. This shows either a profound ignorance or disintrest in faithful representation of these gods and goddesses.

In short, non-abrahamic deities have been essentially commodified into stock characters. Add to this the fact that these deities are almost always cast in a negative light and are frequently portrayed as killable entities (not divine) and you have systemic religious ethnocentrism when it comes to religious characters in video games, TV, and movies. Additionally, it cannot be stressed enough that Hinduism, unlike many of the other religions cast in this role, is one of the most prominant religions in the world, yet is treated as if it is a relic of the past alongside the likes of Zeus and Ishtar, which displays a flagrant disregard for the religion and cultural identity of a large portion of the world's inabitants.

I guess games like In Nomine can be added as a example among many others....

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by Moonsight

Fact is, it's the Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum effect which they're still the same thing in the end since the game uses Christianity as it's roots. You can alter things a bit but it's still Christianity in the end.

Only if you're a Christian. Looking at it from the outside, the game is closer to Judaism than it is to Christianity.

[Moonsight]

Originally Posted by robkelk

Only if you're a Christian. Looking at it from the outside, the game is closer to Judaism than it is to Christianity.

Well after all the game is still Abrahamic centric in the end which is where it's main roots are (well actually Christianity and Islam came from Judaism as it's main source).

One thing I would like to point out however the parts with Lucifer and Satan being "Ruler of Hell" and even Hell itself as we know today are Christian inventions however that came from mistranslations with Lucifer was originally a an Angel that tested faith and "Satan" originally meant "Adversary" which slowly developed into a Angelic being in service of God in some Judaic schools of thought and then Christians turned it into "The Ultimate Evil and Ruler of Hell" which another thing too that Christianity is actually a merger of Zoroastrianism and Judaism hence the "Good vs Evil" overtones to it. Of course Hell itself was originally just a dark pit called "Sheol" and then Christians later added fire and brimstone to it and named it "Hell" by stealing the name of the Norse Goddess "Hel".

Another thing too is that Angels being humanoids with bird wings is also a Christian invention as well that developed from the Renaissance, Angels were originally elderitch abominations.

Also I also keep reading about the "Apocalypse" in this game which is also a Christian invention as well (well also The Book of Revelation is actually nothing more than a footnote of a much larger text).

[William]

Moonsight, the game is meant to poke fun at religions, including Christianity. In the original French version of the game, Jesus was not only hanging around on Earth, he was a stoner.

I can't tell whether you want to make the Ethereal gods not exist, or make the Ethereal "gods" coequal with the Abrahamic God.

In the first case, it would be easy to simply say that there is no such thing as the Ethereal god-mantle, only a realm of dreams and figments and dreamshades, and let Blandine and Beleth work there. You can have Ethereals exist as entities outside of dreamscapes, or remove them entirely and let angels and demons work in individual dreams.

In the second case, this is rather different from standard In Nomine, but you can make every religion true if you want, with its own Heavens, Hells, judgment, etc., etc.

I note that if you're getting hung up on wanting to make the setting "really" match a particular version of early Christianity, with the Devil and the Apocalypse as elements not part of the show, then you'll find that quite a few changes are going to have to be made, so do bear that in mind. The game is really designed to be run on the idea that no religion has it really down pat.

[tHEhERETIC]

Originally Posted by Moonsight

In short: It creates alot of problems if you center everything around Christianity and it just doesn't work.

Personally I find it works beautifully, and I'm currently running with a plot where the gods/Ethereals are finally putting up an active resistance to the Levantine God. Flowing with the premise instead of fighting it.

If you wanted to make a different pantheon in charge and marginalize or even erase the Levantine pantheon--well, knock yourself out and hope your new pantheon has something akin to angels and demons that you can use.

I'm reminded of Seth on The Thinking Atheist, always defining atheism in opposition to Christianity and its kin. It's not that he's shortsighted--it's that he lives in an Anglophone country, and one (U.S.) with a very heavy Christian influence. Had In Nomine been written in say, Mandarin, it might be a very different game, but coming from French and into English it's necessarily going to reflect the cultures it's come through. And hell, if it got popular enough it's a safe bet the Chinese would write their own fanon anyway, if they haven't already.

I'm a pagan and honestly I have no problem with it at all. I got a devoutly Christian friend to play some NPC's for me and we had to constantly separate 'game' angels from the real thing, because to her they weren't near AWESOME enough.

[naraht]

Originally Posted by robkelk

Only if you're a Christian. Looking at it from the outside, the game is closer to Judaism than it is to Christianity.

I'm a fairly secular Jew and I agree with this.

As a Jew, if I get to heaven and the answer as to whether Jesus existed is "We don't know", I'm still feeling pretty good.

How many Christians, if they get to heaven and the answer to whether Jesus existed is "We don't know", are still feeling the same way?

In fact, looked at as a secular Jew, it seems more of the underpinnings of Islam are true in Canon IN than Christianity..

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by Moonsight

Another thing too is that Angels being humanoids with bird wings is also a Christian invention as well that developed from the Renaissance, Angels were originally elderitch abominations.

Well, let's take a look at the game...

• Seraphim: multi-eyed winged snakes
• Cherubim: large, powerful animals with wings (much like the statues scattered throughout Venice)
• Ofanim: wheels within wheels
• Elohim: hairless humanoids (reminiscent of "Grays" from UFO lore)
• Malakim: humanoids with wings... big, black, menacing wings
• Kyriotates: eldritch abominations
• Mercurians: humanoids with wings, but friendlier than Malakim
• Grigori: "giants in the Earth"

So, yeah - practically every variation that fallible mankind has come up with is represented somewhere in the game's Heavenly Choir... although none of them exactly match the stories we tell on Earth.