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Old 10-27-2011, 06:45 PM   #1
Jeminai
 
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Default Max Damage on Bows?

had an archer recently made with a 15 ST and Strongbow Perk for a 17 St on his bow. He wants to get a bow suited to his strength (like Ulysses bow was suited to him)

Question 1: Where can I find a graduated cost table for bows of various strengths?

Next thing he wants to do is purchase his skill at DX+2 and then get Weapon Master, giving him a +2. Of course he wants to purchase Very fine arrows for a +2 as well and load them into a Reflex Bow (thr+3).

In total he is looking at the following:

ST 17 thrust : 1d+2
Reflex bow: th+3
Weapon master +2
Ver Fine Arrows: +2

Totalling 1d+9 imp with and average damage of 12.5

A 27" Scorpion (LT 82) does 3d imp with an average of 10.5 damage. The scorpion has a much less impressive rate of fire.

Am I missing something here? Can bows be built this strong?
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Old 10-27-2011, 07:17 PM   #2
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Max Damage on Bows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeminai View Post
had an archer recently made with a 15 ST and Strongbow Perk for a 17 St on his bow. He wants to get a bow suited to his strength (like Ulysses bow was suited to him)

Question 1: Where can I find a graduated cost table for bows of various strengths?

Next thing he wants to do is purchase his skill at DX+2 and then get Weapon Master, giving him a +2. Of course he wants to purchase Very fine arrows for a +2 as well and load them into a Reflex Bow (thr+3).

In total he is looking at the following:

ST 17 thrust : 1d+2
Reflex bow: th+3
Weapon master +2
Ver Fine Arrows: +2

Totalling 1d+9 imp with and average damage of 12.5

A 27" Scorpion (LT 82) does 3d imp with an average of 10.5 damage. The scorpion has a much less impressive rate of fire.

Am I missing something here? Can bows be built this strong?
I don't believe you can go over Fine on arrows. Otherwise, yeah you've got it right.

In Basic rules, getting a bow that matches your ST exactly is normal and has no special cost. For this and much other low tech manufacture, labor costs are domeinant and whatever increase in amterials you need is ignored. It would be very small.

For ultimate reaism, make him use heavier arrows. They still won't cost that much but they will weigh more. Modern hunting arrows should weigh betwee 10 and 15 grains per pound of pull. There are 7000 grains per pound.

I use a simpel 2x BL for the effective ST (i.e. 1x BL for each arm) but I know Doug Cole wants a higher number (2.5?) for some reason.

My numbers make this a 115-lb pull bow which is very high but not impossible. Arrows should be between 1150 to 1750 grains each. If you split the difference at 1400 you get 5 to the pound which sounds like a nice even number.
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Old 10-27-2011, 07:25 PM   #3
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Max Damage on Bows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
I use a simpel 2x BL for the effective ST (i.e. 1x BL for each arm) but I know Doug Cole wants a higher number (2.5?) for some reason.
Basic Lift, ST 10 = 20
Basic Lift, ST 20 = 80

with 2.5x, a 50-lb. bow is the norm for ST 10, and a 200-lb. bow, in line with the estimates of the heaviest warbows drawn, is ST 20, which is GURPS' shorthand for "about the strongest person."

It just worked out well for what I wanted. Your way is 40-lb and 160-lb, which isn't terrible or evil or nuthin'. It does mean that the heaviest Mary Rose longbow (about 180-190 lbs) requires ST 21.5, and that Mark Stretton's 190-200-lb. bow is ST 22.3. That's fine, but I like ST 20 = 200# bow.

Matter of taste.

And to the OP's point: yes, with the bonuses you can stack on (and no, as Fred notes, you can't do Very Fine arrows) you can do some pretty ugly things with Strongbow (allows +2 ST at DX+2 . . . NOT +2 damage), Heroic Archer (Gunslinger for Bows), Special Exercises (Arm ST 2), and Weapon Master (Bows), you can stack up some MONSTER bonuses. The bow damage in GURPS is highly cinematic as written.
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Old 10-27-2011, 07:35 PM   #4
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Max Damage on Bows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Basic Lift, ST 10 = 20
Basic Lift, ST 20 = 80

with 2.5x, a 50-lb. bow is the norm for ST 10, and a 200-lb. bow, in line with the estimates of the heaviest warbows drawn, is ST 20, which is GURPS' shorthand for "about the strongest person."

It just worked out well for what I wanted. Your way is 40-lb and 160-lb, which isn't terrible or evil or nuthin'. It does mean that the heaviest Mary Rose longbow (about 180-190 lbs) requires ST 21.5, and that Mark Stretton's 190-200-lb. bow is ST 22.3. That's fine, but I like ST 20 = 200# bow.
<shrug> When I was messing about on the fringes of bowhunting 40lbs _was_ the floor. 60 lbs was seen only in the hands of "normal guys" when they were using those newfangled compound pulley bows (which are worth +2 ST all by themselves).

The right archery Style form MA will give you +3 Arm ST to add to the +2 from Strongbow so I'm not worried about having the modern guy with the heaviest pulling bow by a general ST 17. He may have juiced his effective Will a little to use Extra Effort too. He probably already has Breath Control.
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Old 10-27-2011, 08:00 PM   #5
gilbertocarlos
 
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Default Re: Max Damage on Bows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeminai View Post
Next thing he wants to do is purchase his skill at DX+2 and then get Weapon Master, giving him a +2. Of course he wants to purchase Very fine arrows for a +2 as well and load them into a Reflex Bow (thr+3).

In total he is looking at the following:

ST 17 thrust : 1d+2
Reflex bow: th+3
Weapon master +2
Ver Fine Arrows: +2

Totalling 1d+9 imp with and average damage of 12.5
Weapon master is not realistic, he can't have it, very fine arrows aren't too, make it fine arrows, this reduces it to 1d+6, with still is very high.

You could create some house-rules like I did.
Houserule #1-Strongbow is forbidden, an archer could buy special exercices(arm ST) and buy up to +2 or +3 ST tought.

Houserule#2-Every bow/crossbow have damage reduced by one.

Houserule#3-If a bow/crossbow have a ST x2 or more than Min ST, +50% weight and cost, Min STx3 or more, double it.

Houserule#4-This one don't change damage, but all bows have Acc2, and 1/2 is half the max range.

With this house rules, his damage will be reduced by 1d+4, very high still, but still manageable.


Or you could use the House Rules from pyramid - Low Tech.
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Old 10-27-2011, 08:10 PM   #6
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Default Re: Max Damage on Bows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
<shrug> When I was messing about on the fringes of bowhunting 40lbs _was_ the floor. 60 lbs was seen only in the hands of "normal guys" when they were using those newfangled compound pulley bows (which are worth +2 ST all by themselves).
ST 9 gives BL 16 gives 40 lbs. draw weight by Douglas's rule. I don't think it's unreasonable that the floor should be suited to a slightly unathletic guy or an average woman.

Bill Stoddard
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Old 10-27-2011, 09:14 PM   #7
Refplace
 
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Default Re: Max Damage on Bows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
<shrug> When I was messing about on the fringes of bowhunting 40lbs _was_ the floor. 60 lbs was seen only in the hands of "normal guys" when they were using those newfangled compound pulley bows (which are worth +2 ST all by themselves).

The right archery Style form MA will give you +3 Arm ST to add to the +2 from Strongbow so I'm not worried about having the modern guy with the heaviest pulling bow by a general ST 17. He may have juiced his effective Will a little to use Extra Effort too. He probably already has Breath Control.
As a kid my first bow was 35 pounds and my regular archery recurve was 75 as a young adult. Later I got a compound bow that was also 75 which let me hold on to the arrows indefinitely for aiming.
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Old 10-27-2011, 09:51 PM   #8
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Default Re: Max Damage on Bows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos View Post
Weapon master is not realistic
I don't see anything in Jeminai's post indicating the game this character is for happens to be "realistic".
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Old 10-28-2011, 03:08 AM   #9
gilbertocarlos
 
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Default Re: Max Damage on Bows?

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Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire View Post
I don't see anything in Jeminai's post indicating the game this character is for happens to be "realistic".
He clearly wants realism, and don't want the character doing more damage than a piece of artillery.
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Old 10-28-2011, 03:41 AM   #10
mhd
 
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Default Re: Max Damage on Bows?

I don't see a big problem when someone with the best (cinematic!) training available, using one of the strongest bows available does damage comparable to a rather low-level artillery weapon (mostly anti-personnel, if my memory serves).

Regarding the amount of CPs and $s invested into that ability, it doesn't strike me as particularly game-breaking. Considering that the same character dishes out 2d+3 swing damage without any advantages and a $40 axe, thus cleaving heavy plate in twain…
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