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Old 02-25-2021, 09:08 AM   #1
Nic
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Default Ranged enhancement in a ranged innate attack?

What up? So, I am new here, and english is not my first language, so pls forgive my mistakes and point them.

The ideia: You can throw a turret and then fire it be that possition.

The way: The Ranged enhancement emulate the ability to throw the turret, the Innate Attack emulate the turret.

It's useful to bypass obstacles or attack be a different position.
The second attack is rolled as when you do a ranged attack using TK.
I know that you can do something like that with Ally, but that's us not the point.

It does not look under priced, so wold you agree with that use of Ranged?

Last edited by Nic; 02-25-2021 at 02:47 PM. Reason: 2 mistaken words
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Old 02-25-2021, 12:41 PM   #2
johndallman
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
Default Re: Ranged enhancement in a ranged innate attack?

Making sure we understand you... Are "torrent" and "turret" meant to be the same word? It looks like it, but I'm not completely sure.

Are you using "turret" to mean some object which you throw, and which then fires the Innate Attack, which starts from the turret's position?
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Old 02-25-2021, 02:00 PM   #3
Donny Brook
 
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Default Re: Ranged enhancement in a ranged innate attack?

I once toyed with a similar idea -- putting Ranged on a summonable minion Ally combat monster. You'd materialize him among the enemy and watch the havoc at range.
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Old 02-25-2021, 02:52 PM   #4
Nic
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Default Re: Ranged enhancement in a ranged innate attack?

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
I once toyed with a similar idea -- putting Ranged on a summonable minion Ally combat monster. You'd materialize him among the enemy and watch the havoc at range.
I have saw it in a thread about duplication.
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Old 02-25-2021, 02:56 PM   #5
Nic
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Default Re: Ranged enhancement in a ranged innate attack?

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
Are you using "turret" to mean some object which you throw, and which then fires the Innate Attack, which starts from the turret's position?
Yes, I couldn't find a better word to describe it, but it is like when you use the Telecast with a missile spell.
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Old 02-25-2021, 05:07 PM   #6
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Ranged enhancement in a ranged innate attack?

Alright, so what we want to do here is essentially create something (turret, hovering ball of light, whatever; we'll just call it a turret) that attacks enemies. I think the first thing to figure out is how we want it to work, then go from there to see the most appropriate way to build it.

In terms of Range - both for purposes of 1/2D and Max as well as for calculating the penalty to hit a target - I feel it's most fair to add the distance from you to the turret and from the turret to the target together. This also has the added advantage of not requiring some complicated build where we define separate ranges for you and the turret.

Next up is how long it lasts. Innate Attacks are normally instant, which honestly can still work here - rather than creating a turret, it's more like you're doing a mid-air bank shot (so you shoot a beam that, after some distance, changes direction to hit the target). As it happens, there's already an Enhancement for that - Overhead +30% (B107), which can just as easily be from the side or below (if you like, rename it Bank Shot). If you want a turret that lasts for more than an instant, you'll also need Persistent +40%. Normally, that's only available for Area Effects, but I think it would be acceptable to make an exception here. Upon creating a turret, you can have it attack that turn, but thereafter you'll need to use an Attack maneuver to attack with it; the benefit here over Overhead alone would be that you could pop up from behind cover, throw the turret, then get back behind cover and use the turret from there, provided you have some way to perceive the enemy while behind cover (with Overhead, you'd typically need to expose yourself to make the attack if both you and the target are behind cover). If you have multiple turrets summoned at once, each attack action lets you attack with one at full RoF (so Extra Attack, All Out Attack Double, and Rapid Strike would each let you attack with an additional turret). If you want the turret to be able to attack on its own, that calls for Independent +40% (PU4:15); it would still use your attack skill, and should still use the range from you to the turret and from the turret to the target. When you use it, set an RoF (if your Innate Attack has RoF greater than 1) and a target; for the duration, it will simply keep attacking that target at that RoF (but it uses your senses to track the target). Optionally, Independent +70% will allow you to change who the target is and what RoF it fires at as a free action at the start of your turn (resolve the attack on your turn).

At least, that's what I feel would be most fair. As an aside, I feel that Overhead/Bank Shot would be appropriate to take more than once - each instance allows the attack to change direction once (so with Bank Shot 2 +60%, you could fire directly up into the air, have it turn and go straight forward once it clears your cover, then have it turn and go straight down once it clears the target's cover).
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Old 02-25-2021, 06:32 PM   #7
Nic
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Default Re: Ranged enhancement in a ranged innate attack?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Alright, so what we want to do here is essentially create something (turret, hovering ball of light, whatever; we'll just call it a turret) that attacks enemie
So I saw something like this in a video game who the character throw a Sawn-off shotgun close to a enemy behind cover and then that thing shot at the enemy, one good example wold be the lasers of Darkseid's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aWLS4UAdgo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
In terms of Range - both for purposes of 1/2D and Max as well as for calculating the penalty to hit a target - I feel it's most fair to add the distance from you to the turret and from the turret to the target together. This also has the added advantage of not requiring some complicated build where we define separate ranges for you and the turret.
As a Ranged Attack with TK, simple and fast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
As it happens, there's already an Enhancement for that - Overhead +30% (B107), which can just as easily be from the side or below (if you like, rename it Bank Shot).
Overhead is more about a generic/"cosmetic" change in the travel that has a minor effect in the game as Powers it is only a -2 in some situations and don't give the travel change that wold be useful in a situation were the enemy has full cover and overhead cover. There are a variation of Overhead that is the Surprise Attack (Powers pg104), its as the name say and make cover useless, but it is not at the control, its is only a immunity against cover. But stay the problem that you don't really control where the attack wold be.

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
If you want a turret that lasts for more than an instant, you'll also need Persistent +40%. Normally, that's only available for Area Effects, but I think it would be acceptable to make an exception here.
I think Delay + RoF wold be better, persistent means that the Turret wold last for 10s being there at your control,Delay + RoF would make it be there until the last round has been shot. But Persistent looks good.

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Upon creating a turret, you can have it attack that turn, but thereafter you'll need to use an Attack maneuver to attack with it;
Being able to control that thing as at you will look too op, like, the closest thing to that was Mobile and it is +40 or Guided who is +50, i think that the second wold be required to be able to do that as it allow you to control were you attack go, make sense it allow you to control who that think shoot but without the others enhancements parts of Guided.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
If you want the turret to be able to attack on its own, that calls for Independent +40% (PU4:15); it would still use your attack skill, and should still use the range from you to the turret and from the turret to the target. When you use it, set an RoF (if your Innate Attack has RoF greater than 1) and a target; for the duration, it will simply keep attacking that target at that RoF (but it uses your senses to track the target). Optionally, Independent +70% will allow you to change who the target is and what RoF it fires at as a free action at the start of your turn (resolve the attack on your turn).
Independent use to abilities who require Concentrate or Ready, but that is making a attack, I wold require Humoning to being able to attack at its on and unable to change targets, unless, maybe Selective Fire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
At least, that's what I feel would be most fair. As an aside, I feel that Overhead/Bank Shot would be appropriate to take more than once - each instance allows the attack to change direction once (so with Bank Shot 2 +60%, you could fire directly up into the air, have it turn and go straight forward once it clears your cover, then have it turn and go straight down once it clears the target's cover).
I don't think that look good, We already have Ricochet, who wold do something like that.

Other thing to wonder is the of repercussion of the Ranged Innate Attack, if its ok, that wold permit things as a Ranged Attack who end placing a Cone Innate Attack or a Jet, as it was a drone who fly throw the battle and shot a special attack at a enemy or a flying ball of fire who shot lasers.
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Old 02-25-2021, 06:54 PM   #8
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Ranged enhancement in a ranged innate attack?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nic View Post
The ideia: You can throw a turret and then fire it be that possition.

The way: The Ranged enhancement emulate the ability to throw the turret, the Innate Attack emulate the turret.
Sounds sort of like the Dark Cannon ability that Scouts/Surveyors/Rangers/Striders had in Disgaea 1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nic View Post
I know that you can do something like that with Ally, but that's us not the point.

It does not look under priced, so wold you agree with that use of Ranged?
What bothers you about ally, the idea that your cannon might get damaged?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
I once toyed with a similar idea -- putting Ranged on a summonable minion Ally combat monster. You'd materialize him among the enemy and watch the havoc at range.
If we assume summonable minions appear at arm's length by default, I just assumed Ranged would be permitted to extend that. Which should also allow extending the Unsummon range.

http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.html?id=5583

Based on how PK wrote Shayde's ability I'm thinking minions wouldn't be touch-only reach by default though. Shayde can summon up to 50 shadows. It's hard to believe that you could fit 50 SM0 characters into a single hex, though maybe Diffuse is an exception to that?

But the biggest deterrent IMO is the "one ally per enemy shadow".

Now this is presumptuous of me... but the vague impression, rather than "animate the shadows and they all teleport to me" is probably just that "animate the shadows" means "my minions each appear in the hex of the person whose shadow they are".

Maybe even (if light source is in front of your enemies) behind them, getting a surprise attack?

Now in the case that you have 50 enemies... odds are they're probably not all going to be inside your hex, unless Shayde is only meant to copy the shadows of 6-inch fairies.

B101's "circle 2 yards in radius" on the other hand, would at bare minimum allow you to target 7 hexes worth of enemies, perhaps even the 11 surrounding that for 18, depending on how you read that... I think AE +50% tends to just be 7 hexes?

Even the generous 18 wouldn't allow you to simultaneously copy 50 opponents unless they're sharing hexes, but I could see this just meaning that you can do successive attacks and target your AE shadow-copying with subsequent concentrates for the purpose of summoning the rest of your payload. With 100 yard reach (assuming this to be your basic summon/conjure and unsummon/unconjure distance) you could then get that entire 50 enemy group in probably just a few seconds.

I don't see any statements otherwise for duration but I would assume allies are supposed to help you indefinitely and if you want to limit that you put something like Maximum Duration on the Allies advantage, or something like Extra Sleep on the allies themselves if you don't want them able to help 24/7
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Old 02-25-2021, 07:15 PM   #9
Nic
 
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Default Re: Ranged enhancement in a ranged innate attack?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
What bothers you about ally, the idea that your cannon might get damaged?
Close but its more about something more as a attack that can act like a turret than a invocation thing who wold do something and then diaper.
Like the Turrets and Seeker Mines of The Division, they are dispensable and didn't have all the drawn backs of the Allies.

And the others uses of Ranged in others already ranged attacks.
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Old 02-25-2021, 09:56 PM   #10
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Ranged enhancement in a ranged innate attack?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nic View Post
Close but its more about something more as a attack that can act like a turret than a invocation thing who wold do something and then diaper.
Like the Turrets and Seeker Mines of The Division, they are dispensable and didn't have all the drawn backs of the Allies.

And the others uses of Ranged in others already ranged attacks.
I think you can just put a duration cap on your allies to cover limited use

The biggest difficult I think is how to figure out to use Compartmentalized Mind - Dedicated Controls and make it usable at a distance
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