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Old 02-24-2021, 07:41 PM   #11
Refplace
 
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Default Re: Detect and Ranged Attacks

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Originally Posted by Engurrand View Post
So, if you have Detect with Precise, then you can ping a target and then on your next turn shoot them with a ranged attack that ignores darkness and cover penalties? (Though not cover DR, (edit: or range) obvs)
A Detect with Precise is functionally equivalent to Vision for a hum except your using something other than light to be aware of the target.
Cover penalties may apply regardless.
Unless purchased with Vision-Based or something similar it is as separate a new sense as say hearing or smell.
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Old 02-24-2021, 09:09 PM   #12
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Default Re: Detect and Ranged Attacks

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That was my initial understanding but that doesn't seem to be what Mr. Sandman and whswhs are saying.
I don't think they've gotten around to that part yet. The early conversation seemed (to me, anyway) just focused on the question of what makes a targeting sense, and the difference between Targeting and Precise.

The Sensory Hierarchy in Enhanced Senses is about the various flavors of senses and the information they provide. "Combat senses" is not one of those categories -- but that doesn't mean you don't need some additional traits to be useful in combat. The Hierarchy doesn't address processing speed

Depends on how you want to read "allowing an aimed ranged attack". I take that as "as far as the precision and analytical information provided by the sense is concerned, assuming everything else necessary is in place", rather than "always allows despite any other conditions or traits". For a silly for-instance, having a Precise sense doesn't allow an aimed ranged attack when you have no ranged weapons.

I don't think Enhanced Senses actually covers the topic of possibly required Concentration, Takes Extra Time, etc. It does quite commonly use Reflexive for senses that "work automatically", so that's apparently not presumed to be part of senses by default, no matter how high up the Hierarchy you go.
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Old 02-24-2021, 10:24 PM   #13
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Default Re: Detect and Ranged Attacks

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Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
A Detect with Precise is functionally equivalent to Vision for a hum except your using something other than light to be aware of the target.
Cover penalties may apply regardless.
Unless purchased with Vision-Based or something similar it is as separate a new sense as say hearing or smell.
I have seen this interpretation expressed on these forums. I'm going to call it the Refplace Interpretation.

Under this interpretation, you would be using Detect to 'spot' the enemy by their [whatever you Detect] characteristic--in the case of Telescan, it would be their mind. Once you've spotted them you could then shoot them, since you know where they are. If they move, you might lose sight of them and have to require, but only if you weren't paying attention. Detect is not subject to darkness or cover penalties, so there should be no reason you would suffer those penalties once you'd successfully spotted an opponent.

It seems like it is a valid interpretation of the text in Basic, and I know players who argue for it strenuously. But the text of Telescan in Psionic Powers, as well as the rest of Detect-derived powers in PP, state or at least strongly imply a very different and incompatible interpretation: Detect is not a passive sense at all, but only occurs with concentrate maneuvers that _momentarily_ reveal the direction (or with Precise, the direction and distance) to the target. This I'm going to call the Anaraxes Interpretation. Under the Anaraxes Interpretation,

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The target could move in between the ping and the shot. To be useful in combat, the sense would need to be either Reflexive (working automatically all the time, like most human senses), or at least have enough Reduced Time that you can use it actively as a free action. (Unless you've got Compartmentalized Mind or ATR to take two Maneuvers back to back, of course.)
If anybody could point me to any clarifying resource, Kromm quote, or precedent, I would appreciate it with big love.

At this point, I am inclined to agree with Anaraxes Interpretation, although admittedly that might be because that was how I thought it worked when I started this thread.

The bit about the Targeting enhancement was ultimately a red herring. Interesting, but consistent with either interpretation, so not helpful in deciding between them. Sorry if my meandering OP didn't quite make clear what I was asking... I think I'm only now getting to the heart of my confusion.
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Old 02-25-2021, 05:45 AM   #14
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Default Re: Detect and Ranged Attacks

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Originally Posted by Engurrand View Post
I have seen this interpretation expressed on these forums. I'm going to call it the Refplace Interpretation.

Under this interpretation, you would be using Detect to 'spot' the enemy by their [whatever you Detect] characteristic--in the case of Telescan, it would be their mind. Once you've spotted them you could then shoot them, since you know where they are. If they move, you might lose sight of them and have to require, but only if you weren't paying attention. Detect is not subject to darkness or cover penalties, so there should be no reason you would suffer those penalties once you'd successfully spotted an opponent.

It seems like it is a valid interpretation of the text in Basic, and I know players who argue for it strenuously. But the text of Telescan in Psionic Powers, as well as the rest of Detect-derived powers in PP, state or at least strongly imply a very different and incompatible interpretation: Detect is not a passive sense at all, but only occurs with concentrate maneuvers that _momentarily_ reveal the direction (or with Precise, the direction and distance) to the target. This I'm going to call the Anaraxes Interpretation. Under the Anaraxes Interpretation,
For Telescan specifically you get Lock-On at the start and can use telepathic abilities to attack but not other abilities. This is because it has Vague at level 1 and does not get Precise until level 4.
Vague does not give you direction or distance, only the presence of what your detecting. That does not matter with telepathic abilities which are typically and often explicitly called out as not caring about that. They work regardless of distance through mindlink for example.

You are correct in that base Detect is not a passive ability and so a momentary glimpse. However earlier questions were do you need Reflexive, to turn it into a useful targeting ability and IMO the correct answer was given which is no.
Base Detect requires that pesky Concentrate maneuver, however you can get around that by one of the following.
  • Compartmentalized Mind or Altered Time Rate - granting you an extra maneuver so you can target then shoot in the same turn.
  • Reduced Time, +20% (p. B108) or Reflexive, +40% (Powers, p. 109) which effectively includes a level of Reduced Time. Either means its a Free Action to use Detect, allowing you to sense then immediately shoot.
  • Attacking a stationary target.

You'll need Precise, +100% in all cases to make a typical physical attack though. Precise is required to learn the distance and Targeting makes that more exact by effectively adding as a rangefinder. Not that +3 bonus on Aimed attacks is similar to using rangefinders from High Tech or Tactical Shooting.
GURPS Powers: Enhanced Senses by Bill (WHSWHS) explains some of this better than Basic since its a focused supplement.
For supporting evidence I looked at Enhanced Senses and found a Detect without Reflexive specifically available for targeting in Proximity Sense (p. 18) that does not have Reflexive. Though I do think it should have Reduced Time as described and is an error.
Most Detects in that book are built with Reflexive so they work all the time, even possibly waking you up if needed.
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Old 02-25-2021, 07:42 AM   #15
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Default Re: Detect and Ranged Attacks

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Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
You are correct in that base Detect is not a passive ability and so a momentary glimpse. However earlier questions were do you need Reflexive, to turn it into a useful targeting ability and IMO the correct answer was given which is no.
Base Detect requires that pesky Concentrate maneuver, however you can get around that by one of the following.
  • Compartmentalized Mind or Altered Time Rate - granting you an extra maneuver so you can target then shoot in the same turn.
  • Reduced Time, +20% (p. B108) or Reflexive, +40% (Powers, p. 109) which effectively includes a level of Reduced Time. Either means its a Free Action to use Detect, allowing you to sense then immediately shoot.
  • Attacking a stationary target.

You'll need Precise, +100% in all cases to make a typical physical attack though. Precise is required to learn the distance and Targeting makes that more exact by effectively adding as a rangefinder. Not that +3 bonus on Aimed attacks is similar to using rangefinders from High Tech or Tactical Shooting.
This seems like a good and wholesome answer.

If Iíve understood you correctly, reflexive is not strictly necessary to get around the one-second concentration maneuver problem in the sense that it isnít the only way to do it, but it is one way to do it.

Thanks a million!
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Old 02-25-2021, 07:43 AM   #16
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Default Re: Detect and Ranged Attacks

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For supporting evidence I looked at Enhanced Senses and found a Detect without Reflexive specifically available for targeting in Proximity Sense (p. 18) that does not have Reflexive. Though I do think it should have Reduced Time as described and is an error.
Why don't you submit that formally as an erratum and I'll take a closer look at it?
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Old 02-25-2021, 09:08 AM   #17
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Default Re: Detect and Ranged Attacks

I'm not sure I'd want to use Detect to launch any kind of ranged attack. Sure, it seems that Detect, with (Reduced Time and Precise) can be used to Aim at a target and attack it (Aim does see you need to be able to see or detect your target)
But say you can detect Purple Blobs, and know there is one 200y in front of you, but otherwise can't see it because it's pitch black.
How do you know there are no people in the line of fire ? Or a building ?

Also, despite the Precise modifier, it seems that, if your IQ roll to analyze the target fails or is not high enough, you can't really be sure of the size and shape of what you're detecting, so shooting it may be unwise, or much harder.
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Old 02-25-2021, 09:33 AM   #18
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Default Re: Detect and Ranged Attacks

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Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
You are correct in that base Detect is not a passive ability and so a momentary glimpse. However earlier questions were do you need Reflexive, to turn it into a useful targeting ability and IMO the correct answer was given which is no.
Base Detect requires that pesky Concentrate maneuver, however you can get around that by one of the following.
  • Compartmentalized Mind or Altered Time Rate - granting you an extra maneuver so you can target then shoot in the same turn.
  • Reduced Time, +20% (p. B108) or Reflexive, +40% (Powers, p. 109) which effectively includes a level of Reduced Time. Either means its a Free Action to use Detect, allowing you to sense then immediately shoot.
  • Attacking a stationary target.
Is this also true for the Lock-On modifier from GURPS Psionic Powers pg. 14? It'd be surprising if it was considering that the only thing that modifier does is let you follow-up detecting something with using another ability on them (that presumably requires a different concentrate maneuver in the following second). It also states that Precise includes the full benefits of Lock-On. Now this is only for Malediction style abilities rather than physical attacks. But it would imply that you can detect one second and then use an attack the following second on what you detected.

Also, does detect include the ability by default for you to maintain concentration in following seconds to continue sensing the same target? Would it require modifiers for that? Because if so the momentary glimpse might be more like a one second glimpse which is enough to follow-up with an immediate attack (although maybe at some penalties).
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Old 02-25-2021, 10:32 AM   #19
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Default Re: Detect and Ranged Attacks

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Originally Posted by Engurrand View Post
This seems like a good and wholesome answer.

If Iíve understood you correctly, reflexive is not strictly necessary to get around the one-second concentration maneuver problem in the sense that it isnít the only way to do it, but it is one way to do it.

Thanks a million!
My pleasure!

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
Why don't you submit that formally as an erratum and I'll take a closer look at it?
I shall do that.

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Originally Posted by Aldric View Post
I'm not sure I'd want to use Detect to launch any kind of ranged attack.

Also, despite the Precise modifier, it seems that, if your IQ roll to analyze the target fails or is not high enough, you can't really be sure of the size and shape of what you're detecting, so shooting it may be unwise, or much harder.
It gives you the range, I'd rule that this includes overall shape and size too.
Not only does that feel right but compare to Vision and most Scanning Sense abilities should you need yet another modifier on Detect for this?
Radar and Sonar for example let you attack and know the rough size and shape but not physical details. Example a flock of birds may appear as a single object.
However as that example shows it may indeed be unwise! And if your Detect is not blocked by intervening objects you may hit something else instead!


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Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless View Post
Is this also true for the Lock-On modifier from GURPS Psionic Powers pg. 14? It'd be surprising if it was considering that the only thing that modifier does is let you follow-up detecting something with using another ability on them (that presumably requires a different concentrate maneuver in the following second). It also states that Precise includes the full benefits of Lock-On. Now this is only for Malediction style abilities rather than physical attacks. But it would imply that you can detect one second and then use an attack the following second on what you detected.
Compare Precise, +100% with Precise, Nontargeting, +90% (Psionic Powers, p. 14), and Lock-On, +50%.
Precise gives you direction and range, the nontargeting version still gives you exact location but seems to have a built in minor limitation for not being a targetable sense. Lock-On lets you target with indirect abilities but specifically does not give you range - only direction. So its good for spells and maledictions (though you wont know the range penalty) but is inferior to Precise which it specifically calls out as being redundant to (but allowed with Vague). I personally would also allow attacks with the Guided modifier to work with Lock-On (assuming they have the ability to use an effective Precise sense).
Targeting, +20% (one of the best descriptions is for Vibration Sense, Powers, p. 86) requires you already have Precise or the underlying ability be that by default such as Scanning Sense and Vibration Sense. It acts as a high tech rangefinder giving that bonus if you Aim.

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Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless View Post
Also, does detect include the ability by default for you to maintain concentration in following seconds to continue sensing the same target? Would it require modifiers for that? Because if so the momentary glimpse might be more like a one second glimpse which is enough to follow-up with an immediate attack (although maybe at some penalties).
I think this is open to interpretation. I feel a strict reading of Detect says no.
You clearly have to use Concentrate to activate it and reading the Turning Advantages Off and On section (B34) and Concentrate (p. B366) and not really finding anything in Powers my opinion is (and how I have always played it) that you need to keep taking Concentrate to maintain Detect.
This is why Reduced Time, +20% is so useful on this ability.
However, once you spotted it with Detect you may be able to see it more easily or attack the hex it was in.
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Old 02-25-2021, 11:44 AM   #20
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Default Re: Detect and Ranged Attacks

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Compare Precise, +100% with Precise, Nontargeting, +90% (Psionic Powers, p. 14), and Lock-On, +50%.
Precise gives you direction and range, the nontargeting version still gives you exact location but seems to have a built in minor limitation for not being a targetable sense. Lock-On lets you target with indirect abilities but specifically does not give you range - only direction. So its good for spells and maledictions (though you wont know the range penalty) but is inferior to Precise which it specifically calls out as being redundant to (but allowed with Vague). I personally would also allow attacks with the Guided modifier to work with Lock-On (assuming they have the ability to use an effective Precise sense).
Targeting, +20% (one of the best descriptions is for Vibration Sense, Powers, p. 86) requires you already have Precise or the underlying ability be that by default such as Scanning Sense and Vibration Sense. It acts as a high tech rangefinder giving that bonus if you Aim.

I think this is open to interpretation. I feel a strict reading of Detect says no.
You clearly have to use Concentrate to activate it and reading the Turning Advantages Off and On section (B34) and Concentrate (p. B366) and not really finding anything in Powers my opinion is (and how I have always played it) that you need to keep taking Concentrate to maintain Detect.
This is why Reduced Time, +20% is so useful on this ability.
However, once you spotted it with Detect you may be able to see it more easily or attack the hex it was in.
I guess I'm still a little unclear. You say that you need to keep taking concentrate to maintain detect. Does that mean you can maintain detect?
Would targeting something with precise detect (and no other senses) be like trying to target something in a completely dark room via a strobe light that pulses once and only illuminates one thing? (a momentary glimpse)
And then would taking back to back concentrate maneuvers to maintain the detect be like pulsing that strobe every second? Or would it be like continuously shining a light on that thing?
If you added reduced time would that make it continuous? Or just let you pulse quickly enough to follow up with an attack while you could still see the target from the pulse? And if the latter would it be fair to say that the player can't tell what sort of speed penalties they might be at unless they aim for multiple seconds?

Strictly speaking reflexive is about making an ability turn on when applicable instead of needing to intentionally activate it yourself, which also doesn't imply that it would add the continuity to that pulse so much as make the pulse happen automatically and without taking time every second that something could be detected.

Mostly this is important because it seems like if continuity between seconds is automatic if you maintain concentrate, then it's not really a stretch to say that a one second detect has enough of a lingering effect that you could make an attack with it as long as the attack followed in the second immediately following the detect concentrate.

And if that's not the case then it seems like targeting the target with a Malediction or Malediction-like effect via Precise or Lock-On would require an expiration time. I've always assumed that you need to follow-up the detect immediately, and that detect with precise was continuous if maintained and therefore lingering enough to follow-up immediately with a ranged attack, because that seemed like the most common sense interpretation of Lock-On, Precise, Precise (non-targeting), and the part of Enhanced Senses where it lists Detect (Precise) as an example of a Precise Sense and notes that precise senses allow ranged attacks... especially since the Targeting modifier acts as an enhanced ranged finder and gives extra benefits to aiming, and there is no modifier for Detect that says, "You can follow-up your detect with a ranged attack as long as you make it on the second following your concentrate", nor have I seen it explicitly state that you would need such a modifier to follow-up with an attack (although it does state you can follow-up with a malediction).
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