Simultaneous speech and sonar; perk?

[Flyndaran]

Real world animals that use sonar obviously can't talk and "see" at the same time. But hypothetical aliens etc. may be able to. Would that be a mere perk or something more?
I finally got my digital hands on the Senses book, but didn't see anything about the issue.

[spacemonkey]

If you couldn't speak and use sonar at the same time, that would be a limitation on Scanning Sense: Sonar. Default, you only need your ears and a medium. It's still active sonar, because it can be detected by people with the right sense, but doesn't require your mouth to be making noise.

I'd imagine voice-based would be -20%. Temporary Disadvantage: Cannot Speak -15% is another angle.

[Flyndaran]

If it isn't required for basic Sonar, then it's weird that no animal write up I've seen includes such a Temporary Disadvantage. I suppose it might be an oversight for the Senses book.
Then again, the otherwise realistic Hunting Sonar write up already goes way past the max -80%, so it wouldn't change the final point cost.

[jason taylor]

Could they have specialized sonar organs?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

If it isn't required for basic Sonar, then it's weird that no animal write up I've seen includes such a Temporary Disadvantage. I suppose it might be an oversight for the Senses book.
Then again, the otherwise realistic Hunting Sonar write up already goes way past the max -80%, so it wouldn't change the final point cost.

I don't really think it's an issue when they can't so much talk as signal in the first place.

[spacemonkey]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

If it isn't required for basic Sonar, then it's weird that no animal write up I've seen includes such a Temporary Disadvantage. I suppose it might be an oversight for the Senses book.
Then again, the otherwise realistic Hunting Sonar write up already goes way past the max -80%, so it wouldn't change the final point cost.

I wasn't answering from a real-world simulation pov, but rather strictly by the book. Sonar not requiring an emitter is probably a result of it being lumped into scanning sense, all of which are active but don't require an emitter. Radar doesn't have an antenna, ladar doesn't have a laser, sonar doesn't require you to make a noise with a specific bodypart. Sonar can be the result of a vibration superpower, as an example, hearing the return signal of the character's body vibrations.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Could they have specialized sonar organs?

I was writing up an alien with very advanced sonar. They have one set of ears dedicated to ultrasonic sonar, and one set geared toward voice pitches around 0.5 to 1 kHz. That would, I assume, keep the sound waves from interferring with each other. Of course, the complex neural processing involved would be quite alien.
Oh, and ultrasonics are generated by stridulation organs in their nostrum/melon/head "spot". While voices are produced by the more classic modulated breathing vibrations.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by spacemonkey

I wasn't answering from a real-world simulation pov, but rather strictly by the book. Sonar not requiring an emitter is probably a result of it being lumped into scanning sense, all of which are active but don't require an emitter. Radar doesn't have an antenna, ladar doesn't have a laser, sonar doesn't require you to make a noise with a specific bodypart. Sonar can be the result of a vibration superpower, as an example, hearing the return signal of the character's body vibrations.

Super would be a limitation not the assumed base. Sonar requires sound produced by the character, otherwise it's not sonar.
Advantages are simplified with numerous real world issues glossed over, but they aren't supposed to completely violate basic definitions. Unless carefully specified, of course.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

I don't really think it's an issue when they can't so much talk as signal in the first place.

If it were listed, it wouldn't be rules legal. If you are already claiming the full points for Doesn't Speak, it's not a valid limitation on another ability.

But it's not obvious to me it even applies for animals anyway - hearing has to be able to deconvolute signals already or any noise would blind the sonar, and I have no idea if sonar using animals can make communicative noises at the same time as sonar signals, or if not how quickly they can switch modes. Sonar signals are not after all continuous, all animals use pulses, so even if they can't produce two sounds at once (not a given, some humans can do this even vocally), there's time between the pulses. Somebody has probably looked for that in toothed whales, there's been a lot of communications research on them, but other species? Quite possibly not.

[spacemonkey]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Super would be a limitation not the assumed base. Sonar requires sound produced by the character, otherwise it's not sonar.
Advantages are simplified with numerous real world issues glossed over, but they aren't supposed to completely violate basic definitions. Unless carefully specified, of course.

Well, what is the "basic definition" of the sonar advantage? I assumed it was what's written in Basic. You're pigeonholing it to be echolocation based on sounds emitted from the mouth/respiratory system of a biological creature, imo, because that's what you're used to. Robots can have Sonar, and I don't think it's reasonable to say it won't work unless they have a human mouth. Submarines can have active sonar, do they have a mouth? Well, internal speakers, but we're talking an external mouth to emit soundwaves for sonar.

And yes, supers can have sonar that doesn't utilize vocal chords, which is a radically separate issue from the fact that they have a power mod. A standard human that's using "sonar" with standard human hearing is probably making a noise with his mouth, but it's really up to the player's vision of his character. I don't think most players would agree that their Daredevil type character needs to be making odd clicking noises with their mouth to see with their sonar, and even though Daredevil style sonar is literally impossible for normal humans, we still have to model it with GURPS advantages somehow.

If you want your alien to use its mouth to click for sonar, go ahead, it just isn't technically required.

Every toothed whale except the sperm whale has two sets of phonic lips and is thus capable of making two sounds independently.