Power Gaming and How To Thwart It

[moldymaltquaffer]

That really didn't parse very well.

[sgtcallistan]

I find power gaming is only a problem when the game is not about that, and one player doesn't / won't understand that.

In a game based upon 'Streetfighter' style fight competitions, every player decided, in scret, to ask GM (me) to permit them an 'edge' unique to their character, that gave them an 'unloseable' advantage over all others; a trump card.

Of course I permitted, and even encouraged it; it was genre.

In an SF game based on Dune (with Knight of the Old Republic characteristics), I had Star Knights, using the template in Character Builder.

One player could not accept that the characters of this universe with the greatest individual power were bound by a code of honour, and answered to higher Star Knight authority.
He of course wanted to be a law-unto himself rogue and do as he wished. Denying the scenario and all prior planning and suggestions.

His abilities went away; his connection to the force (carefully explained before game start) no longer existed.
Earlier comparisons with D&D Paladins and so on (concepts he could easily understand) didn't help.
He dropped out. Later he said he didn't want to play GURPS ever again. I don't feel I handled it well, but no reasonable argument affected him.

How to thwart it? Not neccessary. Power gaming is it's own punishment.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

This only time that a power gamer is the faul for spoiling other's fun is whe they use the abilities to actively hog all the spot lite... and that hardly a trait unique to power gaming, Storyteller can be ever worse than power gamers at this.

Yes, well, I explicitly stated in my comment that the other archetypes could also be sources of problems, that some power gamers were benign, and that I didn't endorse the common perception of power gamers as automatically bad. Go back and reread my opening paragraphs and you can see that this is so.

A power gamer can spoil other players' fun in various ways:

*Using their power to injure or control other characters who can't fight back effectively.
*Using their power to force the player characters to follow their preferred tactics rather than agreeing on tactics through general discussion.
*Eliminating the problems by massive force before any other methods can be used.
*Turning all problems INTO questions of massive force ("to the man with a hammer" and so on).
*Using their superior capabilities to occupy the spotlight to the exclusion of other characters.
*Focusing all their character's actions on doing things that lead to the fastest possible accumulation of abilities and resources, and refusing to take part in roleplaying, dialogue, and characterization, making them boring to game with.

Bill Stoddard

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

I'm a Powergamer myself, And my first answer would be with a question "Why would you want to thwart it"

Power gaming is about feeling powerful. A powergamer does not need other to be weaker than them. They don't require their fun to be at the expense of the other players. Give everyone an equal chance to shine at what they trying to do and the nothing about powergamin that will inherenting disrupt the game.

I just want to say that there are some powergamers who don't need others to be weaker than they are...but there are a lot of powergamers...let's call them, competetive powergamers...who won't feel powerful unless they are demonstrably more powerful than the other players. They won't feel powerful unless they are bigger, better, faster than the other PCs. They need to have the most kills, the most DPS, the most ninja-awesomeness.

I find those powergamers a problem...even in a game like D&D where the accumulation of power is the point of it.

Secondly, powergaming is a problem if the point of the game is wrapped up in the PCs not feeling powerful. There are many genres where the PCs need to feel quite unpowerful. Horror, Noir...lots of different genres. If the powergamer cannot adjust their style to the genre that's being played...then they will be a problem for that game.

I tend to the dramatics as a player. And I was playing D&D. And this was full-on hack'n'slash powergaming. It was fine to do a little light roleplaying on the side, but it was not acceptable to make any character build choices that were not completely optimized for maximum damage. It didn't matter what your character concept was.

I was playing a rogue. It was time for prestige class. I wanted to pick this prestige class that was about being the leader of a Thieves Guild...because that was how I had been playing the character the entire time. The other players had begrudgingly put up with the fact that I had "wasted" a feat on Leadership to model my criminal family, but they absolutely vetoed my choice of that Prestige class. I was forced by the group to take Master Thrower since that would up my DPS by the most. Even though it didn't make sense based on how I had been playing the character at all. Did I fight it? Not really. Because this, it became clear to me at that moment, was a powergame. Other styles of play would have been a problem. So I powergamed with the rest of them until the campaign was over. I didn't have a lot of fun, but I made sure not to mess up the vibe of the game. I also told that group once the campaign was over, that I didn't enjoy that style of play and wouldn't be back for games that followed in that style. If I had insisted in trying to make the game fun for me, it would have ruined the fun for all the powergamers and I would have been the problem.

If the powergamer insists on powergaming in a game that is fundamentally not about PCs being powerful...then that powergaming is a problem.

[Suriyel]

Originally Posted by whswhs

...

The real issue is how to get people not to spoil the game for other people. And that's not best addressed by out-power-gaming them, if that's where their problem lies. Often it's the very fact that they're forced into a power-gaming style of play that they dislike that makes other sorts of player resent the power gamer in the first place. And the power gamer is likely to be better at it!
...

Bill Stoddard

My experience has been if you balance a scenario to challenge the average party members, it will be a cakewalk for the power gamer. If you design the scenario to challenge the power gamer it will probably kill the rest of the party.

Most GM's I've seen tend to get target fixation on the power gamer and generally it means the only way to survive as the average party member is to either hide behind the power gamer, which is rather boring, or to become more power gamer-esque, which may take a long time depending on how far from optimal you were and will probably require a massive shift in your character design (and a lot of pointless studying of splatbooks and errata).

If there was a PTSD for gamers, I'd have it. One campaign reached the point where I was considering trying to become a minion of the BBEG since it would have been much safer than continuing to hang out with one of the "party" members. I've been on the other side occasionally, though usually not for long once it is apparent that dealing with whatever ability won't be fun for the party nor the GM.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by trooper6

If the powergamer insists on powergaming in a game that is fundamentally not about PCs being powerful...then that powergaming is a problem.

This is is what I said power is relative and why this statement wrong. Yes you were right about Horror, but you were wrong about Noir. Power games are perfectly at home there. lets say we talk Detective Noir the power is not being Rambo, it being a better gumshoe than the police. and you dont need to be Dirk Gently to do that either.

When powergamers need to have the power at the expences of other party members that when you no longer talking aqbout a power gamer you talking about a munchkin and it is unfair to claim they are the same thing

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

This is is what I said power is relative and why this statement wrong. Yes you were right about Horror, but you were wrong about Noir. Power games are perfectly at home there. lets say we talk Detective Noir the power is not being Rambo, it being a better gumshoe than the police. and you dont need to be Dirk Gently to do that either.

When powergamers need to have the power at the expences of other party members that when you no longer talking aqbout a power gamer you talking about a munchkin and it is unfair to claim they are the same thing

A powergamer might be at home in a Mike Hammer story, but in most of the noir and hard-boiled fiction I read the protagonists may be tough guys but ultimately powerless to stop the corruption and violence that decays the soul of the city. Their victories are usually conditional. And they are good at what they do sometimes...but often not completely. They often get played and manipulated and set up and framed and don't even realize it until later. They often get out of it...but not in a way that reinforces a sense of power...but more of stubborn determination.

There is a fight between the Hero and the Big Bruiser.
The Powergamer wants to beat the Big Bruiser and be more powerful than the big bruiser and exert his power over the big bruiser.
The Noir hero may or may not win. And the fight will be vicious and the hero will probably end up with broken ribs. The victory will not come because the hero is powerful...because the hero will know he is less powerful...but because he has more determination and Will to take the beating, or because he cheated, or because the dame showed up and shot the bruiser in the arm.

Decker in Blader Runner wasn't smarter, stronger, faster, or more powerful than anyone else...he just was really stubborn about not quitting...and would take a lot of punishment. You don't get a great sense of power being Decker in that film. That for me is noir. Or Double Indemnity. The hero thought he was super powerful (in this case smarter than everyone else)...but he was smarter than Barbara Stanwyck...she played him like a cheap fiddle then dropped him lack a molding sack of potatoes.

And I see that you are making a distinction between powergamer and munchkin...where powergamer is the good one and munchkin is the bad one. But I don't think everyone is using the same definitions that you are.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by trooper6

And I see that you are making a distinction between powergamer and munchkin...where powergamer is the good one and munchkin is the bad one. But I don't think everyone is using the same definitions that you are.

This is a distinction which was made for about fifteen minutes several years ago, and it's a pity it seems to have vanished, since I think it's a useful one. Seeing as power fantasy is an element of a lot of people's gaming, it's good to be able to distinguish between people who enjoy playing characters who are, among other things, powerful, and people for whom a single-minded pursuit of power is the sole point of interest.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

This is a distinction which was made for about fifteen minutes several years ago, and it's a pity it seems to have vanished, since I think it's a useful one. Seeing as power fantasy is an element of a lot of people's gaming, it's good to be able to distinguish between people who enjoy playing characters who are, among other things, powerful, and people for whom a single-minded pursuit of power is the sole point of interest.

I would actually take an intermediate position, which is that "powergamer" is the broader category, which has both good and bad forms, and that "munchkin" commonly refers to the bad form.

Bill Stoddard

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I would actually take an intermediate position, which is that "powergamer" is the broader category, which has both good and bad forms, and that "munchkin" commonly refers to the bad form.

Bill Stoddard

Hm. That is interesting. That opens up the way for a new term to describe someone who enjoys playing powerful characters without any negative connotations. Any ideas? High-powered Player?