ST: Olympic Lifts

[MIB 1473]

Anyone interested in how ST or BL correlates with Olympic lifts might want to check this table. It's from one of the guys behind the Crossfit program (see, e.g. http://www.hyperfitusa.com/hyperfit_...-rankings.html). The weights listed are the totals of three lifts: squat, deadlift, and standing military press.

Bwt: Body weight (all numbers in lbs.)
Unt: untrained
Nov: novice
Int: intermediate
Adv: advanced

Men's Class Rankings
Bwt    Unt   Nov   Int   Adv   Elite
114    228   395   468   646   836
123    246   427   510   695   901
132    265   461   546   745   848
148    296   516   618   833  1061
165    322   560   672   906  1149
181    348   604   722   969  1245
198    366   637   764  1017  1305
220    385   671   807  1071  1373
242    402   700   833  1102  1411
275    413   718   856  1128  1441
319    422   733   874  1150  1466
320+   430   748   891  1169  1494

Women's Class Rankings
Bwt    Unt   Nov   Int   Adv   Elite
97     134   231   270   370   480
105    143   251   291   400   507
114    155   269   314   426   537
123    164   284   333   452   566
132    173   302   351   473   594
148    190   332   389   520   648
165    206   357   417   560   709
181    220   383   451   598   737
198    237   412   474   630   788
199+   250   434   506   662   826

Preliminary findings:
* The difference between Untrained and Elite is almost doubling ST. There's no reason to believe that anyone could actually make that progression, but it shows the range of plausible ST for a given body weight.
* Men have lifting ST 20-30 percent greater than women of the same weight. Note that this is dwarfed by differences in training levels -- an elite woman lifts approximately twice as much as an untrained man of the same weight.
* The differences listed here are below GURPS' level of resolution.

[TJA]

Very interesting!

The ratios between untrained and maximum weights:

For men:

3.66667
3.6626
3.2
3.58446
3.56832
3.57759
3.56557
3.56623
3.50995
3.4891
3.47393
3.47442

So, around 3,5 times as much ...

For woman:

3.58209
3.54545
3.46452
3.45122
3.43353
3.41053
3.44175
3.35
3.32489
3.304

Also about 3,5 times as much, many a bit lower.

That would set the maximum ST including all benefits from skills (weightlifting) to about 18.7, based on the "untrained" persons starting at ST 10.

Fits quite fine with GURPS :)

So, it seems, +8 or +9 to ST seems to be maximum that should possibly be gained from excercises (including the effects of weighlifting).

[TJA]

Also, comparing the ratio of maximum lift to own body-weight, the following results:

men:

7.33333
7.3252
6.42424
7.16892
6.96364
6.87845
6.59091
6.24091
5.83058
5.24
4.59561
4.66875

From about 5 to over 7 times as much as the own weight!


woman:

4.94845
4.82857
4.71053
4.60163
4.5
4.37838
4.29697
4.07182
3.9798
4.15075

Between 4 and 5 times the own weight.

[dcarson]

I'd figure the difference between Novice and Elite is mostly strength gain. The difference between Untrained and Novice is more learning how to do Extra Effort.

[Stupid Jedi]

You did say that the weights lifted were the total of three separate lifts. I don't see how you can generate maximum lift to body weight from this table since you don't know the data for the individual lifts.

It is important to consider that a lot of the training will improve the Lifting skill, which will then skew the ST benefits. Assume Untrained has no Lifting skill; Novice, Lifting 10; Intermediate, 12; Advanced, 14; and Elite, 16. In controlled, non-combat situations, you can get up to a +4 bonus to success rolls. On average, multiply to the weights lifted by the following numbers: Novice (0.714), Intermediate (0.625), Advanced (0.556), Elite (0.500).

Assuming my assumptions are correct, this means the difference between untrained and elite is only about 1.4x ST, not double ST. This is a pretty dramatic difference of interpretation. There is also Extra Effort to consider, and whether or not strength training raises Lifting ST independently of overall ST.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Stupid Jedi

You did say that the weights lifted were the total of three separate lifts. I don't see how you can generate maximum lift to body weight from this table since you don't know the data for the individual lifts.

Actually, that's extremely easy to find out. Those totals, I think you'll find, will precisely match the totals of the Press, Squat, and Deadlift from these tables for a given sex and bodyweight. They're from Mark Rippetoe/Lon Kilgore's book "Practical Programming for Strength Training" and they are also online at EXRX.net:

http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLi...Standards.html
http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLi...Standards.html
http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLi...Standards.html

They aren't actually results generated from a sample of workouts, they're suggested standards for judging someone's progress. If you want actual results, they probably have them over at http://www.logsitall.com/ but you'd have to register to check.

The Crossfit folks have a very high regard for Mark Rippetoe and Lon Kilgore, and use their standards for their own strength standards. In fact, the Crossfit total (the press + squat + deadlift one-rep maximums) was developed in part by Mark Rippetoe. If you're that into understanding the standards, here is how you perform a CFT:
http://journal.crossfit.com/2006/12/...y-mark-rip.tpl

It's probably a bit more game-useful than O-lifting or powerlifting standards, since it's done "raw" - no gear, and the lifts are more brute strength than skill. There really isn't as much technique in deadlifting, squatting, or pressing overhead as their are in the olympic lifts, the clean and jerk and snatch.

That said, I'm going to stay out of this thread. While I love strength training and read up on it daily, my games never seem to involve determining someone's squat or DL, nevermind their clean+jerk or snatch weights. :)

[Victor Maxus]

For what it is worth, there is something I saw on the Discovery Channel a few months back that discussed human strength. One of the very intresting aspects was the comparing of a World Strongest Man winner to an Olympic weight lifter. Each was able to easily lift 350 pounds. The Strongest Man lifting 350 pound boulders and putting them on a shelf, and the Olympian doing bar weights, he did a clean and jerk. However, when they swapped roles, neither could lift the other. The Olympian could not budge the 350 pound boulder, and the Strongest Man got the 350 pound bar weights just a few inches up before he gave up.

The point they were trying to make is to show that a lot of training is based on technique and which muscles are developed. If you do not train the right muscles nor learn the correct technique, then what you can lift can vary greatly with yourself.

In Gurps terms, this may be represented with individual techniques under lifting skill, and perhaps a lifting strength with some sort of single attack modifier as with striking strength. Just a guess on that from me is all.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Victor Maxus

For what it is worth, there is something I saw on the Discovery Channel a few months back that discussed human strength. One of the very intresting aspects was the comparing of a World Strongest Man winner to an Olympic weight lifter. Each was able to easily lift 350 pounds. The Strongest Man lifting 350 pound boulders and putting them on a shelf, and the Olympian doing bar weights, he did a clean and jerk. However, when they swapped roles, neither could lift the other. The Olympian could not budge the 350 pound boulder, and the Strongest Man got the 350 pound bar weights just a few inches up before he gave up.

That sounds really suspect to me, actually. A strongman who can lift a 350 boulder, but can't deadlift 350 on a bar? The basic strengthening training for strongman work is the deadlift. The starting position and motion of the deadlift and the stating position and motion of the clean - the first part of the clean and jerk - are identical. Plus most Strongman competitions include deadlifting heavy weights and clean-and-jerking heavy logs. I'd want to see the video on that but it seems a little fishy that they'd have trouble getting a bar (an ergonomic strength tool) off the ground. The reverse I can see - it's harder to lift a round rock than a straight bar, so you need to be much stronger than the weight implies.* Another problem for reality-to-game strength comparisons based on lifting barbells, actually. A ST 10 guy in GURPS can put 160# over his head in a matter of seconds, regardless of its ergonomics, without extra effort. Heh.

Maybe it's just bad Discovery Channel science? Their "Fight Science" show was part of the inspiration for the "Bad Reenactments" box on pg 26 of GURPS Martial Arts.


* To clarify - I'm not saying O-lifters are weaker than Strongman competitors. I'm saying if the most weight you can lift on a bar is 350#, you are going to have a lot of trouble with a 350# atlas stone. But if you can lift a 350# atlas stone, you'll have less trouble lifting a 350# bar. It's demonstrable at lower weights, too - try lifting a 45# olympic bar (empty bar weight) off the ground vs. a 45# sandbag vs. a 45# smooth, round ball. The bar is easier, as it's designed to be balanced and easily grippable.

[Stupid Jedi]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

It's probably a bit more game-useful than O-lifting or powerlifting standards, since it's done "raw" - no gear, and the lifts are more brute strength than skill. There really isn't as much technique in deadlifting, squatting, or pressing overhead as their are in the olympic lifts, the clean and jerk and snatch.

According to the RAW, the Lifting skill applies to all lifts, regardless of the type of lift. I also disagree that deadlifts don't require much form; I saw someone blow out their back and knee trying to do an improper deadlift, and they weren't lifting excessive weight, they just had bad form. The Lifting skill represents training in lifting muscles, which aren't always the same as striking (fast-twitch) muscles -- the same way training in the Hiking (or Running or Swimming) skill obviously would increase the conditioning of someone's legs for that activity. The muscles of people who regularly perform heavy weight-lifting becomes ideally conditioned for that kind of activity -- that is, training in the Lifting skill.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Stupid Jedi

I also disagree that deadlifts don't require much form; I saw someone blow out their back and knee trying to do an improper deadlift, and they weren't lifting excessive weight, they just had bad form.

Disagree with whom? I didn't say deadlifts don't require much form. I said:

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

There really isn't as much technique in deadlifting, squatting, or pressing overhead as their are in the olympic lifts, the clean and jerk and snatch.

That's sort of like saying "There really isn't as much recoil in a .50 handgun as there is in a .50 machine gun." Both have recoil, one has more. Deadlifting does have technique, but it's not nearly as complex or technique-dependent as the snatch, clean, or jerk. I deliberately stated this as a comparative, I didn't make any statement at all about a lack of technique in deadlifting. It's just comparatively a less technique-dependent lift than the C&J.


(By the way, I said I'd stay out of this thread...I'll stay out of the game discussion. Real-life strength discussion, heck, that I'm interested in.)