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Old 02-08-2010, 08:04 AM   #461
roguebfl
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
This thread isn't about D&D, it's about d20 Modern.
No it not. it was about the D20 system as a whole, and the OP used D20 Modern (his preferred system) as proof that it was a Generic system, worthy of more than just being considered D&D, a premise the vast majority rejected.
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Old 02-08-2010, 08:34 AM   #462
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

Just for the sake of clarity, the d20 system is not dead. D&D 4e is a d20 system, but Wizards of the Coast doesn't really advertise that. The reasons for that are diverse and you probably don't care, so I'll spare you.

That said...

The joy of the d20 system at its height was that it was an open (see the OGL, which is also not dead, since the license itself says it cannot be revoked) system that could be used for any genre and any setting. It was, theoretically, a generic and universal system, and those in the community who had never heard of GURPS (or who had some ill-defined vague sense of dislike for the game) hailed it as a "brand new thing" that would "unify the gaming industry" and so on and so forth.

And so when WotC announced d20 Modern, we were all set for a game that would let us take our D&D characters and plop them into a modern or futuristic setting. Unfortunately, that's not what we got. And thus, the fracturing began.

I don't have access to the numbers, but based on experience I would say d20 Modern maybe achieved the sales numbers that SJGames gets for GURPS, and at any rate the sales were enough to continue the line (limply) for 5-6 years. As for the d20 system in general, I would say that at its height the broad spectrum of the system was probably much more popular than GURPS, but that it collapsed under its own weight. The collapse was well under way when this thread began four years ago, and at this point, I'm pretty confident that aside from Paizo's Pathfinder and WotC's D&D4e, GURPS is more popular than the d20 system.
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Old 02-08-2010, 03:34 PM   #463
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
This thread isn't about D&D, it's about d20 Modern.
Well the thread title doesn't say a darn thing about d20 modern it just mentions the d20 system. I suppose it's been a while since I read the opening post.
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Old 02-08-2010, 08:28 PM   #464
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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Well the thread title doesn't say a darn thing about d20 modern it just mentions the d20 system. I suppose it's been a while since I read the opening post.
Nah, you're right. I skimmed through the beginning of the thread again, just to see. The OP repeatedly makes mention of D20 or the D20 system. First time he even mentions D20 Modern is 18 pages in, as one of two examples (The other being D&D) of D20 systems.

In fact... That seems to be his (or her, whatever) only mention of D20 Modern in this thread. He mentions other settings (Especially D&D) more frequently. So I don't get sir_pudding's objection that the thread is about D20 Modern, not D20 games in general. Yeah, the guy might have played that system more, but everything in this thread seems to be addressing the whole D20 system, including D&D...
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Old 02-08-2010, 09:21 PM   #465
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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First time he even mentions D20 Modern is 18 pages in
Umm, considering this thread is only 12 pages long for me, it should illustrate why you should use post counts rather than page numbers to indicate, as the number post per page varies based an a person's settings.
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Old 02-08-2010, 10:17 PM   #466
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

most of the d&d players i have ran into don't like gurps cause you can't get away with dumb crap and wounds will put you down quick as such they don't like it because if they try and run a super character they will DIE!!!!and speedilly.they can't powergame which they can't stand.this has been my primary complaint when new players have the combat rules explained to them.they see the reality and don't want nothing to do with it then and go back to playing in their monty haul games.as i like realism in my games and gritty brutal combat thats why i like gurps mostly.
also gurps forces you to actually THINK,another concept lost upon powergamers.they just want to have the dice do it for them,gurps makes you roleplay and think beforehand as you'll be buzzerd bait in heartbeat.
in a nutshell,the realism of combat turns them off and they keep playing their cheesy monty haul games where they can be a veritable combat god.
when you explain the effects of wounds,knock down,blood loss,stunn,concussions,falling damage,burns and so on.i can see their visions of playing a rambo john j character fading fast!they avoid gurps cause of this.especially the younger crowd who have gotten badhabits either because of vidio games or the way wtc games let you run combat monster type characters.oh well i say,when you want to play in a real game let me know,untill then keep playing your cheesiness.
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Old 02-08-2010, 11:48 PM   #467
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

DnD has enjoyed the number 1 slot in RPGs for 30 plus years. Gurps and Traveller both put a small dent in this. World of Darkness a little more.

I buy all sorts of Hardbound Full-Color RPG books - D20 OGL included. Production Quality is important. Most Full Color Hardbounds are very well done.

If I were SJG I'd take all 17 Hardbound 4e releases and the Full Color Hardbound 3e releases updated to 4e with free copies of Gurps lite and release the whole collection to retail and support it with 4 hArdbound releases each year.

The main points for Gurps:

1) Generate ANY character imaginable with only player book or the character generator. Most RPG people today use character generators.

2) Gurps lite is actually a playable RPG game - best givaway ever made.

D20 OGL material converts to Gurps easily - so does Mongoose Traveller material.
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Old 02-09-2010, 07:58 AM   #468
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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Originally Posted by roguebfl View Post
Umm, considering this thread is only 12 pages long for me, it should illustrate why you should use post counts rather than page numbers to indicate, as the number post per page varies based an a person's settings.
Yes, because the exact number of pages is such an important factor here...

...So actually, no, not really.
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Old 02-09-2010, 08:41 AM   #469
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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2) Gurps lite is actually a playable RPG game - best givaway ever made.
I totally agree with this. d20 has the OGL, but that isn't the complete game. It lacks crucial parts of character creation and advancement, which was part of WotC's design.

That SJGames just up and gives away their (presumably) best-selling game is amazing. It's also one reason they are now getting my TRPG moneys. ^_^
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Old 02-09-2010, 01:11 PM   #470
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

D20 is a very good system. It isn't as realistic as GURPS. That is totally intentional. There is no need for specific rules for everything. If you want that, that's ok, but it isn't needed, and can make the learning curve alot steeper. I can teach a total newcomer to roleplaying the d20 system in a half hour or less. GURPS takes alot longer. The simplicity is a big part of what makes d20 so popular.
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