Culture Clash: Modern Gamers and Keep on the Borderlands

[Jeffr0]

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

Jeff:
It's very interesting to see that your PC's hit 1600 XP (most of which appears to have been treasure XP) in one session. I had someone claiming it isn't typical to level up in 4 or fewer sessions in D&D... even tho' I've never seen a surviving party fail to make 3rd level in 8 sessions.

And note that...

1. If the party had jacked the goblin caves with a half dozen men-at-arms backing them up, they'd have seriously diluted their characters' share of the XP.
2. In my game, players can always roll up another character, but hirelings and henchmen are not nearly as replaceable. In my game, they should be treated as a major resource-- even more important than hit points, spell slots, oil, and rations.
3. The hobgoblin surprise attack concentrated the XP gains into two solid characters while culling out the weak characters that only had one or two hit-points. It was actually a good thing if you didn't mind spending ten minutes to roll up new characters.
4. Players tend to pick a class based on wherever their best attribute lands in the 3d6-in-order thing. The prime requisite xp bonus is a big deal even if they are going to die. At the same time... if you really need a particular class to round out the party... there is no built-in rules to punish lousy attributes. (Magic User with INT 5? Actually... as far as I know... yes! I'm rereading the rules, but this is my guess right now.)

The main thing is to play several lighting raids in a single session. (Easy to do if you just use pregens.) The camping/watch segment I religiously run with is implied by B2, but technically not supposed to be implemented until you go to Expert D&D. Funny, that....

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Check out all the rules for who reinforces who in Keep. Aggro-ing an entire lair is quite probable in many areas.

I'm well aware :D My players have a spectacular ability to create a vortex of trouble as well, so this could get funny.

Originally Posted by Anthony

I've run RtKotB in 3e and achieved a TPK (well, actually, they got sold into slavery by kobolds other than the one who died of mummy rot and the gnome who got eaten, but same difference), I know someone who ran KotB in 4e and achieved a TPK. I think it's just a feature of the module design, not of red box per se.

Oh, it's definitely that module is a meat grinder. It was written at a time when D&D was still very close to it's war-gaming roots, and I'm not surprised that it was set up so assaulting what amounts to a fortress teeming with enemy combatants would be lethal.

What I've seen and heard of the official 4e version of the module (was run for D&D Encounters, and Wizards annoyingly won't package it up for sale to "regular" GMs) they've turned it into a typical 4e adventure, where you have a well-segregated series of encounters and a rather railroady feeling to them. Basically the exact opposite of the original, which was an ur-Sandbox adventure, but that's a weakness of being an Encounters adventure - 1-2 hr pickup games run weekly by official WotC representatives, a "railroady" format is probably the only way to herd a constantly changing cast of PCs and players into being even vaguely co-operative.

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

Jeff:
It's very interesting to see that your PC's hit 1600 XP (most of which appears to have been treasure XP) in one session. I had someone claiming it isn't typical to level up in 4 or fewer sessions in D&D... even tho' I've never seen a surviving party fail to make 3rd level in 8 sessions.

Well, are they including "but then I died"? :D XP accumulation doesn't matter much if you get eaten and have to roll up a new character.

[Jeffr0]

TSR: Gary... see if you can whip an introductory module for the Basic Set.
Gary: No problem!

(days later)

Gary: Here... give them... THIS! <maniacal laughter>

(months later)

Thousands of enthusiastic new players get slammed in the privates by an insanely hard scenario in their first session. Not to be dissuaded, they start to get back up and roll a new character... at which point their brains are crushed with a heavy blow to the head. Such a small module... and yet... so very heavy....

(years later)

Gamers: Oh yeah, Keep? That was such an awesome adventure! We played it over and over!

[sir_pudding]

You keep saying "modern gamers" in your posts, but don't define what you mean. Do you mean "people that still play RPGs regularly", "gamers under 50, (or 40, or 30)", "people that game differently from me", "people who play games other than OD&D" or something else?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Bruno

What I've seen and heard of the official 4e version of the module (was run for D&D Encounters, and Wizards annoyingly won't package it up for sale to "regular" GMs)

Ponder what an 'unofficial' version would look like. Let's poke at the kobold caves, area A. The area contains a total of 31 male kobolds (HP 3, D 1-4, AC 7), 28 female kobolds (HP 2, D 1-3, AC 7), 3 kobold guards (HP 5, D 1-6, AC 5), 1 kobold chieftain (HP 8, D 2-8, AC 5) (the male-female ratio of 35:28, despite a violent society, says something about kobolds. I think other areas have similar ratios). A reasonable xp budget for an area like this is 2,500 xp (half a level for a level 1 party); we'll include a Kobold Chieftain (200 xp) and 3 Kobold Dragonshields (125 xp each), so that leaves 1,925 for the rest of the kobolds. We can complete our budget with 6 x level 1 kobolds, 53 x level 1 kobold minions. I'm going to use Monster Vault creatures, other than the Chieftain, who comes from Dragon Magazine Annual. Females are AC 13 and do 3 damage, and are worth 20 xp each.

• Outside the Caves: 6 x kobold tunneler, 1 x kobold slinger, 1 x kobold quickblade (350 xp). They are located in the trees above the entrance; DC 18 to spot them. If not spotted, they will wait for PCs to enter the cave, then come up behind (stealth +8). If not spotted, they will attack when the PCs reach the pit trap. The tree area is difficult terrain and provides concealment (total beyond five squares); the kobolds have cleared a couple of kobold-sized paths which are also suitable for other small races, but will not help larger characters.
• Pit Trap: level 1 elite trap (200 xp), perception DC 19, thievery DC 19, attack +4 vs Reflex; fall 10' (1d10 damage) and victim is knocked prone, and the pit closes behind them. On a miss, cancel the move that would cause the character to enter the pit. The pit walls are DC 20 to climb; opening the pit from below is strength or thievery of 15 and requires a standard action. The kobolds are not immune to the pit, but there are boards stored at area 1 to allow crossing the pit without hazard. On my version of the map, I move the pit trap 5' towards the entry, leaving a 5' passage behind it and convenient access to corners kobolds can attack from. Also, one kobold from area 1 is watching at the corner, and will attempt to get PCs to rush him by throwing a javelin and then pulling back (due to shifty, kobolds can move to a corner, attack, and shift out of line of sight).
• Area 1: 4 x kobold tunneler, 1 x kobold slinger, 1 x kobold quickblade (300 xp). If alerted to a fight, one tunnelers will run off to warn others; it takes one round to reach the intersection, where he will yell an alert to area 6, and then two more rounds to reach areas 4 and 5. The rest of the kobolds will take up positions behind the pit; if PCs successfully jam the pit, the kobolds will retreat towards the intersection.
• Area 2: 1 x scurrying rat swarm, 1 x dire rat (200 xp). At interesting sounds such as battle or the pit trap closing, they will rush towards that, but it will take them two rounds to wake up and actually get there.
• Area 4: 3 x kobold dragonshield (375 xp). If alerted, two will head towards the battle, one will stay to alert the chieftain.
• Area 5: 1 x kobold chieftain, 5 x female kobolds (300 xp). Unless previously alerted, the chieftain is not wearing armor (AC 14), and will take ten rounds to don armor.
• Area 6: 1 x kobold slinger, 1 x kobold quickblade, 15 x kobold tunneler, 23 x kobold female (1035 xp). Unless previously alerted, none will be wearing armor (-2 AC on all males), and it will take them a minute to equip themselves.

[Jeffr0]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

You keep saying "modern gamers" in your posts, but don't define what you mean. Do you mean "people that still play RPGs regularly", "gamers under 50, (or 40, or 30)", "people that game differently from me", "people who play games other than OD&D" or something else?

Good question.

My generation of gamers mostly did not understand AD&D 1e. We held Basic D&D in a special place of derision. We thought TSR made silly, broken games and spent a lot of time and money trying to find something that did things right-- stuff like Twilight 2000, FASA Doctor Who, Victory Games Jame Bond.... GURPS was a very big deal when it came out, but we probably couldn't figure it out. We played microgames like Ogre, G.E.V., CAR WARS, and Illuminati... but maybe never quite understood the tactics. ("How can the Ogre ever lose?") The games of the seventies (like Melee and Wizard and OD&D) would occasionally be mentioned in magazines, but they pretty much could not be had for love nor money. They effectively didn't exist. The Ultima and Zork computer games were extremely influential to us. We might have played different things... but basically every teenage guy gamed (usually in secret for fear of losing status to the girls) even if it was just Axis & Allies or something. "Real games" were state of the art at the time-- computers were primitive, expensive, and not yet ubiquitous.

Modern gamers, in contrast, are primarily influenced by the game design choices of D&D 3.5 and 4e, Magic The Gathering, Warhammer 40K, and massively multiplayer online rpg's. For the most part, I don't think they've heard of GURPS. Most have played one or more of Settlers of Cataan, Carcassonne, Ticket to Ride, or Dominion. The only vintage games they are most likely to have been exposed to are Battletech and Shadowrun. The stigma of geekiness has lessened and girls are far more likely to participate in gaming actively. Modern gamers can easily get information about any game that was ever made, but they are more likely to use smart phones to coordinate their social activities while a game is being run.

These are of course gross generalizations. I can go to Origins and run just about any game ever made and get a table full of players. Big city people can hook up with people that play just about anything, too. My experiences are limited mostly to small towns that barely have enough population to keep a game store in business. Your mileage may vary and regional differences are liable to be significant.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Jeffr0

My generation of gamers

So mid to late 30s? In which case I'm the same "generation" as you, but I'm pretty sure we have very different gaming styles.

[ULFGARD]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

So mid to late 30s? In which case I'm the same "generation" as you, but I'm pretty sure we have very different gaming styles.

He's in the same generation as me, and it seems like his experiences are similar to my own. That was growing up in AK, so who knows what effect region plays.

Naturally, we all have different gaming styles -- if we didn't, this forum wouldn't be any fun!

I, for one, have never gone to a convention, never even been interested in it. I've played several different games over the years, but GURPS 3d and now 4th have been my go-to for most games I run.

[Bruno]

Same actual cohort here, a zillion miles away from you in gaming culture. I really don't think "generation" is the word you want at ALL. I think you mean "In my corner of small town America".

I cut my teeth in RPGs as the DM of the original Keep on the Borderlands ... at age 7[1], and on CRPGs on the NES.

I graduated to AD&D when my French teacher realized I was a 10 year old girl, a helplessly nerdy autistic kid with few friends, AND already a gamer, and gave me his entire AD&D collection[2]. To be fair, the only way I didn't fit the stereotype was my gender... I bootstrapped myself to 2e AD&D.

I found the goth/gamer group in highschool, and heard about this Werewolf thing, and by this time I felt about werewolves about the way I felt about dragons at age 7, so I visited the game store... and picked up GURPS Werewolf by accident. There was some confusion, and then I got the Basic Set and decided this could only be more cool if it had werewolves fighting dragons in it. I also picked up WW's Werewolf and played and GM'd that through highschool, along with D&D 3e when it came out.

Sadly, I couldn't really get any of my friends to play GURPS until 4e.

[1] I made my mother buy it for me when I saw it in a flea market because it was about DRAGONS and had a DRAGON on it and I'd DIE if I didn't get it. But this was the 80s and when my dad got home she made him go to a game store and settle this cult nonsense once and for all. My dad took me and bought me The Best Of Dragon Magazine #1 because it had a dragon on it. He had a nice chat with the store owner, who got him to also buy a more modern introductory box set for me, and we went home. Dad told my mom it was a game for nerdy Engineers so stop worrying. <3 my Dad.

[2] Much to my parents mixed confusion. Why was this teacher giving their daughter piles of those expensive gaming things? Turned out his group had upgraded to 2e and they were just mouldering in his closet.

[Jeffr0]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Same actual cohort here, a zillion miles away from you in gaming culture. I really don't think "generation" is the word you want at ALL. I think you mean "In my corner of small town America".

Okay, that stings. (Really it does.)

But seriously, the generation of OD&D and Holmes Basic set and Fantasy Trip gamers... they are just so different from my generation that came of age when AD&D was long in the tooth and a dozen companies were scrambling for slices of the non-TSR market. The goth/magic/werewolf/vampire spasm of the 90's was totally different again.

70's gamers were mostly war gamers and cargo-cultists. 80's gamers saw an explosion of different and innovative game companies-- Steve Jackson Games being my favorite, of course. The 90's saw the market contract and shift as new attempts to monetize gaming fell together. The 00's have been the long defeat with the homogenization and monetization intensifying. The 10's have so far been about the rise of the "long tail" and the revival of old school gaming-- as witnessed in the "death" of 4e and the reprinting of AD&F 1e.

Most people changed with the times or faded away. My tastes were pretty much set in the eighties, though.