Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Gnome

We hope the DR from the pads protects them...

And still there are many deaths every year, and horrible long term brain damage from all that tackling.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

And still there are many deaths every year, and horrible long term brain damage from all that tackling.

0.1 deaths per 100,000 participants in 2011.

http://www.unc.edu/depts/nccsi/2011FBAnnual.pdf

Literally one in a million.

Edit: plus three times that rate for non-direct injuries, such as heat stroke, heart attack, and one by blood clot. Four direct deaths, about twelve indirect, with 4.2 million participants.

Edit 2: This report barely touches on long-term TBI from repeated concussive events. it's just about dead players.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

And still there are many deaths every year, and horrible long term brain damage from all that tackling.

High Tech gives DR 3 for the upper torso / shoulder pads, DR 6 for the helmets. In reality, neither of those can fully protect from neck injuries or blunt trauma.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

0.1 deaths per 100,000 participants in 2011.

http://www.unc.edu/depts/nccsi/2011FBAnnual.pdf

Literally one in a million.

Oh. Well, I guess that puts it on the level of a triple-critical (such as a Crit Success Slam roll, followed by a Crit Fail on the DX roll to avoid falling, followed by a Crit Fail on the HT roll to deal with the damage).

[coyote6]

Originally Posted by Gnome

We hope the DR from the pads protects them...

Right, but the rule under discussion required damage of greater than HT/3; that's 4 or more points for HT 10+ (which most football players are inevitably going to be) before a slam can knock the person down. With the DR 3, that means each knockdown basically deals at least 1 HP of injury. Hence, when QB Joe gets sacked 4 times and knocked down 5, he's taken at least 9 pts of damage. That seems awfully high to me.

Of course, GURPS isn't built to be a simulation of a football game, but football was just an example to illustrate how it seemed a bit too high a threshold.

[Walrus]

There was some dicussion about that several monthes ago and we cocnluded that one should consider Moving Things, (Basic, p. 353), thus, attempting to slam somebody exceeding your 24xBL is effectively Collision with Immovable Object rather than usual Slam.

[Ultraviolet]

Originally Posted by coyote6

That seems high, as it implies that anyone bowled over three times will be rolling to stay conscious, assuming no DR. Given how many times an NFL quarterback can get knocked down in a game, I don't think pads provide enough DR to keep 'em above zero HP after a typical game, if that's the rule.

I usually just revert to 3e rules - quick contest of ST, with modifiers - when a slam comes up in my current game. That's always semi-normal human vs. the same, though.

I played a *lot* of 3e, mostly Cliffhangers - and boy did we Slam a lot.
I saw massive problems with 3e RAW in practice. Speed meant less, but Mass means one heck of a lot more.
IIRC it was a contest of ST, Wrestling gave bonus per full 8 points of score. Moving full speed before impact, or having moved full speed the round before and performing a Step-and-Attack gave +2. Slamming fro behind was a further +2, as was Flying Tackle (attacker leaps but is sure to go down himself as well). But the heavier fighter was at +1 per 10 pounds he weighed more.
If the attacker won he moved the defender 1 hex per 2 points MOS. And there was some modified roll to avoid falling down.

And for a character with significant weight, say a ST 13 somewhat heavy (without being Overwight or Fat) picking up most of these bonuses, versus a regular ST 11-12 goon...

We often saw a victim moved further back than his normal running speed.
Caution need to be taken when using the 3e rules.

And for this reason i really liked the 4e Collision rules when I read them. I made a table to cross reference HP and speed to find the modified dice of damage.
But after years of use there seems to be very little difference unless one combatant is of extreme mass or speed. And bonus from Sumo, AoA, or shields is massive realtive to the basic damage.
But on the other hand we don't use it as much.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Bibiribobiri

As commented on Thread "Shield Slam rules in GURPS 4e - problems?" the Slam rules seems broken [...].

Does anyone propose some house rules for a shield rush that are more realistic and ST sensitive (for an Fantasy game)?

It may be a naive solution (I didn't try it), but why not just a quick contest of strength? The one who win makes the other fall down.

If one is running toward the other, he adds his speed to his Strength.

If one slam the other's legs, he has a bonus because he unbalances his victim. Something like +4. A labrador, for instance, could easily make a man fall down if he slammed his legs (despite of its lower strength score)...

And for the damage, just use the usual collision rules.

Originally Posted by Bibiribobiri

How would the new shield rush deal with defenses or the wait manouver?

The rules could be exactly the same as any other kind of attack, I suppose.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

0.1 deaths per 100,000 participants in 2011.

http://www.unc.edu/depts/nccsi/2011FBAnnual.pdf

Literally one in a million.

Edit: plus three times that rate for non-direct injuries, such as heat stroke, heart attack, and one by blood clot. Four direct deaths, about twelve indirect, with 4.2 million participants.

Edit 2: This report barely touches on long-term TBI from repeated concussive events. it's just about dead players.

My mistake then. I guess all the protective gear works perfectly to keep people alive. The long term risks are very real, but far below the resolution of Gurps.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Gollum

It may be a naive solution (I didn't try it), but why not just a quick contest of strength? The one who win makes the other fall down.

If one is running toward the other, he adds his speed to his Strength.

If one slam the other's legs, he has a bonus because he unbalances his victim. Something like +4. A labrador, for instance, could easily make a man fall down if he slammed his legs (despite of its lower strength score)...

And for the damage, just use the usual collision rules.

The rules could be exactly the same as any other kind of attack, I suppose.

Sometimes small creatures can knock down bigger ones. Some cats can take down enormous prey. My own, obese at the time, cat knocked down a fully grown man by kicking off the wall and slamming. My relative had a mattress between them afraid for how panicked my kitty was.
Cerbee was disturbingly strong, but still a house cat, not a leopard.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Sometimes small creatures can knock down bigger ones. Some cats can take down enormous prey. My own, obese at the time, cat knocked down a fully grown man by kicking off the wall and slamming. My relative had a mattress between them afraid for how panicked my kitty was.
Cerbee was disturbingly strong, but still a house cat, not a leopard.

Yes, but wasn't the fall of the man mainly due to surprise? A cat which jumps like that is terribly surprising and quite frightening. It's sufficient to make someone suddenly move backward and fall down.