Several questions about Close Combat

[GWJ]

1. If I STARTED my turn in Close Combat with the foe, but I will take step back (out of CC) and THEN I will attack - I'm attacking as in CC, or "normal rules"?

2. If I'm in CC w/t/foe, and this will attack me, and I will do Dodge+RETREAT out of CC. If I understand the rules correctly, I'm defending as if still being in his hex. But what about other foes' attacks on me - CC defenses or any defense?

3. Reverse of #1. We are at certain small distance, and I'm entering Close Combat with him and I'm attacking (fist for example). Does he defend normally, or as in CC (so no blocking and only C range parries)?

4. Does evaded foe's hex also count's as "+1 hex", like an ally?

5. What it means "It takes one Ready maneuver and a successful DX roll to
ditch your shield in close combat."? Does it mean "(...) DX roll to drop your shield - you have free hand and your shield in on your hex"?

6.

Originally Posted by Exploits, p.49

And though the shield
is valuable against hordes, it’s too cumbersome to respond quickly to
each foe

How? I have the Knight in my group, and shield side attacks (which are often, when there is much foes around) are his Nemesis, because of just 1 shield block per turn. It takes just one goblin etc. to make him very vulnerable against attacks of the horde (I mean one goblin who will manage to get into CC with the Knight, to prevent him from parrying with weapon and blocking with shield). The rest of the horde can just hack&slash that poor guy... What are we missing?

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by GWJ

1. If I STARTED my turn in Close Combat with the foe, but I will take step back (out of CC) and THEN I will attack - I'm attacking as in CC, or "normal rules"?

Normal if you attack after the Step, CC if you attack before.

2. If I'm in CC w/t/foe, and this will attack me, and I will do Dodge+RETREAT out of CC. If I understand the rules correctly, I'm defending as if still being in his hex. But what about other foes' attacks on me - CC defenses or any defense?

Your Dodge is considered to happen before you Step as part of the Retreat, so it's still considered to be in CC. After you've Retreated (whether or not the Dodge was successful*) you are no longer in CC, you've moved into a different hex.

Unless your foe followed you with their own Step... or * the attack you were defending against was a grab or some other "movement stopping" attack. For a grab I rule that the attack stops you from stepping away, for other things I rule as the whims of GMing take me.

3. Reverse of #1. We are at certain small distance, and I'm entering Close Combat with him and I'm attacking (fist for example). Does he defend normally, or as in CC (so no blocking and only C range parries)?

The only sane rulings are to consider "which hex am I in" when making an attack or defense. Thus, if you've entered an occupied hex*, so you are in CC. If you've stepped into an unoccupied hex (for whatever reason aside from a Retreating Defense) you are not in CC.

* Indeed in my games a hex which is "one half or smaller" is considered Occupied or Obstructed for rules that interact with those two words. Just for my own sanity.

4. Does evaded foe's hex also count's as "+1 hex", like an ally?

Yes. The +1 comes from moving through obstructed hexes, not from the Ally. The only difference is the allies do not require evading, they don't "get in your way" that way. Of course, foes that don't want to get in your way also don't require evasion rolls (trust me, with small enough foes, this happens, reference: Trample).

5. What it means "It takes one Ready maneuver and a successful DX roll to ditch your shield in close combat."?

It means, use a Ready Maneuver and make a DX roll. If successful you drop your shield. If not, you do not.

Does it mean "(...) DX roll to drop your shield - you have free hand and your shield in on your hex"?

Yes? Except you also have to spend a Ready Maneuver unless you have a buckler, bucklers are treated as 'weapons' for dropping*.


* Probably should also be treated as weapons for disarming purposes... I mean I do, but it's not RAW.

6.

This is not so simple so I'm breaking it up:

How?

Don't take fluff text literally. That's Sir Yvor's opinion and he's a numpty at times.

I have the Knight in my group, and shield side attacks (which are often, when there is much foes around) are his Nemesis, because of just 1 shield block per turn.

I allow iterative shield blocks at -5 per block just for this (-3 with Weapon master that covers shields, like "Knightly Weapons" or "Sword and Board"). It's not as nice as iterative parries, but it makes the shield using Knight feel better.

It takes just one goblin etc. to make him very vulnerable against attacks of the horde (I mean one goblin who will manage to get into CC with the Knight, to prevent him from parrying with weapon and blocking with shield). The rest of the horde can just hack&slash that poor guy... What are we missing?

GURPS Martial Arts.

This has been talked to death in this subforum (at least by me) but Close Combat is deadly for starting and newb PCs. Deadly.



[EDIt]Some people like the extra scoop of deadliness that comes from Close COmbat in DFRPG. I'm not saying the rules as written as wrong... just that my group didn't like them, so I house ruled them. Along with other things to make the game flow more the way we prefer it.
[/EDIt]


To mitigate this I imported the "Long Weapons in Close Combat" rules from Martial Arts pg 117 (only the first three paragraphs, fiddling with damage was ignored) and allow for weapons Reach Statistic to be lowered by one with a Ready Maneuver. So a Reach 1+ weapon can be Readied for Close Combat with a Ready Maneuver, and then Readied for Reach 1+ when CC is over, the Perk Reach Mastery removes the Ready requirement.

So for example this lets a Bastard Sword (Reach 1, 2) be Readied into a Reach C, 1 with a "variant grip". The Knight can then use it in CC with ease, but not attack foes at Reach 2 until he re-Readied it for Reach 1, 2. Yes, this means it takes two Ready maneuvers for use in CC "Readying for CC, 1: and then Readying for Reach CC". It's a bit time consuming, but my Players prefer to having to carry CC weapons and then having to weapon swap in the midst of combat... and I allow certain Templates to take the Reach Mastery Perk.


For shield usage I strip the user of the DB to Blocks if they're in CC and allow them to block to their heart's content. Otherwise Close Combat is even deadlier for shield users than anyone else.

If they have a Buckler, I allow them to Ready it as if it were a weapon and then remove all penalties for being in CC that come from having a shield, but they can only Block CC attacks (this makes Bucklers* slightly better).

And thus I redeem Sir Yvor's idiotic "against the hordes" nonsense.


* I have a few house rules for Bucklers which make them better and worse, the above are my ways of making them better. Being disarmable makes them 'worse' (as per weapon disarm rules, but the shield user gains their DB to their retention roll), taken as a whole, it's roughly evened out.

I also allow Shields to make disarms against weapons... but that's a whole nother thread topic... ;)

[Imbicatus]

Also, every template except barbarian and cleric has an option for a reach c primary melee weapon, and the barbarian has points in brawling so they can use a weapon haft or pommel as a fist load at no penalty.

Close combat is only deadly if you choose to take weapons that aren’t good in it.

[Neveron]

Originally Posted by Imbicatus

Also, every template except barbarian and cleric has an option for a reach c primary melee weapon, and the barbarian has points in brawling so they can use a weapon haft or pommel as a fist load at no penalty.

Close combat is only deadly if you choose to take weapons that aren’t good in it.

Even then, a starting Cleric who has Broadsword-14 has Shortsword default to 12 - which gives you the thrusting Long Knife and the Short Baton. The latter cost $10 and weights 0.5#, so really there's no reason not to have one in reserve. Even if readying it in close combat might be a hassle.

It's far from being a perfect option, but in a pinch it's much better than nothing.

[Þorkell]

Originally Posted by Imbicatus

Also, every template except barbarian and cleric has an option for a reach c primary melee weapon, and the barbarian has points in brawling so they can use a weapon haft or pommel as a fist load at no penalty.

Or being a barbarian, can't he just headbutt people?

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Imbicatus

Close combat is only deadly if you choose to take weapons that aren’t good in it.

Knives are cruddy weapons. Most PC's fists and feet are cruddy weapons.

Do you really want to drop your broadsword and pull a long knife when the Dragon invades your personal space and jams you against a wall?

Or versus wolf packs harrying you from all sides?

Or the horde of goblins where you can't even step out of close combat?

[Neveron]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Knives are cruddy weapons. Most PC's fists and feet are cruddy weapons.

Do you really want to drop your broadsword and pull a long knife when the Dragon invades your personal space and jams you against a wall?

Or versus wolf packs harrying you from all sides?

Or the horde of goblins where you can't even step out of close combat?

I dunno, I feel like pulling out a long knife - or even a short baton - is vastly superior to throwing a punch for some characters. (For the bog-standard starting Broadsword Cleric it regularly does thrice the damage!)
And throwing a punch is arguably a better idea than not being able to attack at all. Kicking's a good option if you have good enough DX to not fall and be immediately covered in Dire Wolves, since it lets you keep your broadsword out, but that's not the case for some professions (e.g. Cleric).

Of course, in most of those cases you're probably going to die anyway and keeping the broadsword up for the parry is probably a good idea just to make you survive longer and give your more-capable companions a chance to save you.
Consider accepting your death and telling the Wizard to chuck a big Explosive Fireball at you. Or I guess you could buy an emergency Sleep Potion and hold your breath as you chuck it at your feet.

Against the dragon you might as well just make it easier for everyone involved and just throw yourself into its mouth.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Neveron

Against the dragon you might as well just make it easier for everyone involved and just throw yourself into its mouth.

Invest in spiked armor first.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Neveron

Consider accepting your death and telling the Wizard to chuck a big Explosive Fireball at you.

Insanely Overpowered Fireballs solve all problems.

Against the dragon you might as well just make it easier for everyone involved and just throw yourself into its mouth.

Dragons appreciate it when their delivery* shows that it knows it's palace. Though for some, getting it out of its shell is half the fun.

* Why else did the village give you those Hickory BBQ flavored health and mana potions for free...

Originally Posted by Bruno

Invest in spiked armor first.

I assure you madam, the dragon has lobster pliers somewhere around here...

[Imbicatus]

Knives and batons are both actually pretty decent. A long knife is swing cutting damage at reach 1 which isn’t too shabby, and being a cheap weapon means it’s easier to get some damage bonuses from fine. A short baton can do swing damage in close combat, and is the only weapon that can do so. Yes it’s less damage than a flail or a broadsword, but being in close combat can be just as advantageous for the PCs as it is for monsters if you build for it, and building for it doesn’t have much of an opportunity cost when it’s just the short sword skill and gear selection.