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Old 02-04-2019, 09:48 AM   #91
ericthered
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Your "full Douglas Cole" phrase early on probably had me wanting to channel https://gamingballistic.com/tag/dodge-this/ but that's something to consider for other battles, I suppose.

That looks fun! If you look at the actual pyramid article it actually doesn't result in a penalty though, because there is a built in bonus for the predictability of the trajectory. See the table on page 30.



If I were to modify the parrying of the slam we just saw, I'd make the following adjustments instead:
  • When parrying or dodging a slam sidesteps get the full bonus and stepping back only gets the sort of bonuses sidestepping normally gets. If you side step, the attacker passes by you. They don't get to end up behind you, as you can turn as part of the retreat, but they do end up past you.
  • Some sort of fix to the natural weapon weight rules. You can parry pretty much anything you can lift with your arm, with the only caveat being damage. Unarmed attacks like slams don't do damage, so you can RAW block a ST 19 slam with ST 10.
Quote:
Anyway... when a Slam is dodged, I'm supposed to go sailing past you for another couple yards, as MP permits. Since I have Move 5 and only used 4 to enter your hex, and ended up not actually getting past you, I would still have 1 MP left to move past you now that you dodge, and should end up in the hex behind you...
Note: I didn't dodge for that exact reason. Yes, Its a little silly. I just noted that you attempted to evade and when failing that attempted to slamm into me. That's another technically legal move that really shouldn't be allowed: you tried to not hit me, and I prevented it, and then you switched to trying to hit me, and I prevented it. And you maintained your momentum? weird.


Quote:
Now, for the 2nd half of the attack... I think I'll just do a telegraphed right-handed punch to random location. There's no M+A penalty due to Extra Effort (DWA is a single attack), the -4 from DWA is cancelled by the +4 from telegraph, the -1 from FP loss is cancelled by the +1 from Evaluate, so I can roll against a 14.


I got a 9, successful! I got an 11 for RHL (abdomen) and on sub-table E got a 2: the punch targets your Digestive Tract.

And I rolled a 15. Crap. Stupid dice.
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Old 02-05-2019, 07:50 AM   #92
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

Something else about Evade that I overlooked, and made my attempt even more futile... MA107 suggests when doing a Move and Attack to apply the -2 penalty for "doing two things at once" to the evade roll.

I agree with that, on the condition that it should also apply to the 'Obstruct' roll if someone moves through your hex. It would also apply to a DX roll to remain standing if I get knocked back by you on your following turn, any any other rolls you can think of which are not an active defense or a resistance.

I notice it also says Rapid Strike and Combinations are not allowed, but it doesn't say DWA isn't, so I guess what I did was okay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
That looks fun! If you look at the actual pyramid article it actually doesn't result in a penalty though, because there is a built in bonus for the predictability of the trajectory. See the table on page 30.
I'll have to review it, I don't remember all the components and didn't have the Pyramid on hand. I remember wanting to build more on the perception idea. Part of the problem seems to be either you perceive it or you don't... but there should be degrees of perception. Like:

1) I see he is firing a shot
2) I see his shot will go forward/left/right
3) I see his shot will enter my hex / my ally's hex
4) I see his shot will hit a specific individual within a hex (multiple characters being able to share a hex)
5) I see his shot will his this specific hit location on that individual

I think you could based that on a Margin of Success, or Margin of Failure. The exact degree to which you correctly perceive something would influence choice, particularly in cases where it's possible to Sacrificial Dodge (or Sacrificial Block) to stop an arrow from hitting an ally, for example.

Merely knowing someone took a shot isn't enough, you do need to know that it will hit you or your ally (and WHICH ally, if you have one on either side of you) to know how you should be reacting to an arrow or a thrown knife.

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
When parrying or dodging a slam sidesteps get the full bonus and stepping back only gets the sort of bonuses sidestepping normally gets. If you side step, the attacker passes by you. They don't get to end up behind you, as you can turn as part of the retreat, but they do end up past you.
It almost seems like it would be a shove as an aggressive parry. Except you're partially shoving yourself away from them and them away from you. Maybe it could also result in deterring them from a straight line so they end up in the right if you sidestep left, or left if you sidestep right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
Some sort of fix to the natural weapon weight rules. You can parry pretty much anything you can lift with your arm, with the only caveat being damage. Unarmed attacks like slams don't do damage, so you can RAW block a ST 19 slam with ST 10.
I'd just like gradual increase in penalties to parry based on weight, similar to what Cole did for grappling in TG.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
Note: I didn't dodge for that exact reason. Yes, Its a little silly.
I misread, thought you dodged but you parried.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I just noted that you attempted to evade and when failing that attempted to slamm into me. That's another technically legal move that really shouldn't be allowed: you tried to not hit me, and I prevented it, and then you switched to trying to hit me,
I guess I view it as "I tried to dash around/under/over him, but he moved into the way to stop me, so I rammed him".

What's a little weirder is when someone dodges a Slam but then tries to obstruct the movement, which is why they don't allow it (the overrun happens first)

So really the tactical error is mine, I should've tried to slam you first, and if you dodged, then overrun, then smacked you from behind. Parrying of course, prevents that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I prevented it. And you maintained your momentum? weird.
I think the valid point you are making here is that momentum should be assumed to be in a straight line. If you are deviating from a straight line that should interfere with it. "Front" movement is one of 3 hexes, but I think any time someone takes the non-centre (front-left or front-right turning to face) or strafes (front-left or front-right, but keeping staying forward instead of strafing) if it doesn't slow them down, at the very least that movement shouldn't count to accelerate them further. Both are slow/clumsy (2 MP instead of 1 MP) things in tactical combat.

Stepping around obstacles (+1 MP for allies) or trying to evade (successful or not) seems equally slow/clumsy and should perhaps similarly be non-accellerating. I don't know if it should necessarily reduce your velocity to 0, but maybe it shouldn't add any.

I think a fair way to do it would be to consider any movement to accelerate by 1 yard/second by default, but -1 acceleration per extra Movement Point that transference would cost you. Another way to represent that would be 2 minus MP. This way 2 MP stuff wouldn't speed you up or slow you down, but 3 MP stuff would begin to slow you down, and so on.

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
And I rolled a 15. Crap. Stupid dice.
At least it's not 17 so there's no risk of accidentally knocking yourself out.

*checks dice log* I think your modified dodge in this case would've been 13, not 14, since it doesn't appear you subtracted the -1 to defend against a DWA

If I hadn't already used Extra Effort on my attack, I think it would be too late to use "Mighty Blows" at this point, presumably you would have to declare that before the to-hit roll. I'm a little unclear when you need to declare 'Rapid Recovery' for axes and the like.

...although checking MA107 again, this is forbidden for Move and Attack anyway!

Anyway, rolling damage for the punch now...

Due to being at 9/12 FP (75%) High-Resolution ST Loss reduces ST 12 by 12.5% (1/8 is 1.5 points) to 10.5

You had said ".5 classically is considered to round up when rounding to the nearest." but I'm wondering how that works in respect to this sentence:
For higher resolution, reduce ST by half the percentage of FP loss, regardless of whether other penalty thresholds have been surpassed. (Round to the nearest whole number.)


Is "round to the nearest" referring to the "half the percentage" amount (round 1.5 up to 2) or to the final ST (round 10.5 up to 11) ?

For now I'll roll the default damage... I got a 5. Or maybe a 4 depending on how we do rounding with HRSL, because I'd do 1d-1 if reduced to ST 10.

Do you want to Roll With Blow?

You know, come to think of it, maybe the decision of whether or not to roll with blows should be done after being hit but BEFORE rolling damage? What do you think? Or could this be a "dual option" thing where if you declare after, it's penalized somehow?

Last edited by Plane; 02-05-2019 at 12:26 PM.
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Old 02-06-2019, 09:06 AM   #93
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

Quote:
I'll have to review it, I don't remember all the components and didn't have the Pyramid on hand. I remember wanting to build more on the perception idea. Part of the problem seems to be either you perceive it or you don't... but there should be degrees of perception.



...


Merely knowing someone took a shot isn't enough, you do need to know that it will hit you or your ally (and WHICH ally, if you have one on either side of you) to know how you should be reacting to an arrow or a thrown knife.

Its a bunch of disparate options. At some point the "awareness" aspect of PER needs to become the hand-eye coordination aspect of DX.


For this fight, only the penalties to defend against very fast projectiles have been relevant.


Quote:
It almost seems like it would be a shove as an aggressive parry. Except you're partially shoving yourself away from them and them away from you. Maybe it could also result in deterring them from a straight line so they end up in the right if you sidestep left, or left if you sidestep right.
Which seems like a more effective parry than stepping backwards and getting a bonus to dodge them that way.

Quote:
I'd just like gradual increase in penalties to parry based on weight, similar to what Cole did for grappling in TG.
where is that? I've never noticed it in TG.



Quote:
I guess I view it as "I tried to dash around/under/over him, but he moved into the way to stop me, so I rammed him".

What's a little weirder is when someone dodges a Slam but then tries to obstruct the movement, which is why they don't allow it (the overrun happens first)

So really the tactical error is mine, I should've tried to slam you first, and if you dodged, then overrun, then smacked you from behind. Parrying of course, prevents that.

I really think you should declare if you are slamming or overrunning before you try either, and they will preclude both. You really only have one moment of contact.



Quote:
Both are slow/clumsy (2 MP instead of 1 MP) things in tactical combat.
Both are steps, not movement, unless you've already burned your step. Steps are a privileged form of movement that are never considered "awkward".


Quote:
*checks dice log* I think your modified dodge in this case would've been 13, not 14, since it doesn't appear you subtracted the -1 to defend against a DWA
You are correct. Not that it changes the roll.

Quote:
If I hadn't already used Extra Effort on my attack, I think it would be too late to use "Mighty Blows" at this point, presumably you would have to declare that before the to-hit roll. I'm a little unclear when you need to declare 'Rapid Recovery' for axes and the like.

...although checking MA107 again, this is forbidden for Move and Attack anyway!
move and attack really is limited!


Anyway, rolling damage for the punch now...

Due to being at 9/12 FP (75%) High-Resolution ST Loss reduces ST 12 by 12.5% (1/8 is 1.5 points) to 10.5

Quote:
You had said ".5 classically is considered to round up when rounding to the nearest." but I'm wondering how that works in respect to this sentence:

Is "round to the nearest" referring to the "half the percentage" amount (round 1.5 up to 2) or to the final ST (round 10.5 up to 11) ?
Yes, you have ST 11.
Quote:

Do you want to Roll With Blow?

You know, come to think of it, maybe the decision of whether or not to roll with blows should be done after being hit but BEFORE rolling damage? What do you think? Or could this be a "dual option" thing where if you declare after, it's penalized somehow?
Traditionally, I always see it being rolled after damage, and we're generally playing with perfect knowledge here.



Where are rules for hitting the digestive tract? I think that's equivalent to a torso hit, but I'm not sure, and It effects if I roll with the blow or not.
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Old 02-08-2019, 11:59 AM   #94
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

I think it was added in Low-Tech, as far as I know it's like a regular torso hit except you have to make a HT-3 check to see if you get an infection from an intestinal tear or something along those lines.

Not enough to actually influence this fight, but you might be bedridden days later!

Accessibility: Digestive Tract is a -50% limitation in "Powers: The Weird" too.

You don't want to try and reduce 5 damage to 2.5 (not sure if to round to 2 or 3)?
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Old 02-11-2019, 07:58 AM   #95
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

roll with blow specifies rounding up.



Ugg. I've got a 25% chance of falling over If I roll. Its not a major wound either way. The shock penalties won't make a difference. Unfortunately, I still need to PIF, and every point of damage gives me a penalty. The difference between rolling at 13 and 11 is huge: enough that I think I have to either roll with the blow or give up the game. If it weren't for that, I wouldn't risk it.


He makes the roll with the blow, and the knockback roll. I think the characters are 1 yard apart at this point. I burned 2 AP rolling with the blow and moving backwards, and loose 3 to HP loss. Next turn has -3 due to shock.



Red will all out defend (bonus to dodge).
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Old 02-11-2019, 06:20 PM   #96
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

You went from 8/10 to 6/10 retreat-dodging first half, then down to 5/10 from trying to dodge, then down to 4/10 from rolling with blow, then down to 3/10 from keeping balance

5 damage is doubled to 10 for the purposes of determining knockback, which is just enough to be 1 multiple of your HP-2 (more than ST-2 but I figure if your ST begins to depreciate from fatigue, you can rely on HP as mass to resist knockback instead)

please make a 3d6 roll to mitigate the loss of 3 additional AP (pg 9 Injury and Damage). The target number is your HT (10 adjusted down to 9 due to fatigue) minus shock (3) so you must roll lower than 6 and may subtract MoS from the 3 AP lost.

Quote:
I still need to PIF
I'm not sure what you mean, you would only have to roll that if you go below 0 FP. Even if you can't mitigate the 3 lost due to damage, you would be at 0 and get 2 free AP for defensive actions due to AOD, so you should be fine.

I don't need to know the results of your HT check (RPwise I wouldn't know) I'm doing a normal attack maneuver, and since my left leg is injured, do a right-legged kick (DX-1-2=9) that's telegraphed (9+4=13) to a random hit location, since you're too far away to punch.

I got a 12, a successful hit! I roll a 10 on RHL (chest) and a 6 on sub-table D (normal chest hit). You are +2 to parry or +4 (AOD:DD) to dodge. 3/5 with One Foe, possibly more if you do a retreat or acrobatic dodge. How do you defend?

It's doubtful I'll damage you further and drop you below 0 (forcing an FP loss) but I can at least force a defense so you don't get the HT roll to recover AP :)

Come to think of it, would such a HT roll suffer a shock penalty just like the AP loss mitigating HT roll?
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Old 02-12-2019, 08:56 AM   #97
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

The AP roll failed, and I'm down to 0 AP. despite rolling a 7. I've still got my 2 all out defense AP though.



Shock only effects IQ and DX, not HT.



My comment about PIF was that the two points of damage matter because they reduce my roll when I PIF from 13 to 11, and that's a big decrease. (HT + trained skill + 5 - damage)


Red retreats from the kick, makes the dodge roll and takes all out defense (dodge) again.
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Old 02-12-2019, 04:35 PM   #98
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

I also all-out defend, use my free step to get back within reach 1 of you
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Old 02-13-2019, 09:32 AM   #99
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

All out defense recovers a single AP (stupid FP penalty, or it would have been 2).



I can't think of a better option that working away at that weak leg.



And he misses the kick but (barely) makes the balance roll. I think that costs an AP, which means that I have to PIF.


I succeed, and have 4/10 AP, and 7/10 FP.
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Old Today, 01:34 PM   #100
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

minor point: there are 2 rolls you make when you lose an FP

1) "Hitting the Wall" is an HT-based roll which can result in HP loss

2) "Persistence is Futile" is a Will-based roll which can result in pausing

I think your Will and HT are the same, so your PIF roll works regardless of putting "HT" in parenthesis, but I think you had to roll HTW first to see if you lost HP, since that could result in an IQ penalty from Shock.

At 70% FP, I don't think you've hit another threshold for IQ/HT/DX penalties, I think that was every 20% increment so you had hit it upon dropping from 9/10 to 8/10, whereas I hit it when dropping from 11/12 to 10/12 I think? Hard to remember.

Even though ST loss happens more incrementally, -1 to damage happening every 2 points of loss effectively puts it at a comparable rate of influence for striking. It would only matter more for ST contests, like choking.

please make a HT roll for Hitting the Wall to see if losing FP made you lose HP

unfortunately for me, I didn't include any house rules for being able to declare active defenses prior to resolution of to-hit roll, to allow stuff for making defenses against misses, for the purpose of stuff like critical success (which turns an attack into a crit fail) or using retreats (extra movement) or using stuff like Grabbing Parry (if either of us had a grappling skill like Judo or Wrestling or Sumo, which we don't, so I don't think we can do it)

On the plus side, I guess this means my untriggered AOD does let me make a HT roll to recover AP, which I may as well go ahead and do now...

I got a 12. That would normally be a slim success, but my -1 to HT from FP loss reduces my effective HT from 12 to 11 so I just barely fail, and get no AP back this turn.

What I do on my next turn is dependent on if "Hitting The Wall" causes you any visible damage or not.

I am assuming since you made no mention of using your free step that you have remained at reach 1, and are retaining it for purposes of retreating? I think you are able to use your step either before or after your attack, so you would have the option of using it to move to reach 2 if you'd like. You'd just have to pay extra AP to retreat if I did something like step back into reach 1 and try to kick you.

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