Is the Mental Stun Spell too powerful?

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by thom

Mailanka, are you in the camp that believes once an opponent recovers, he does not suffer the -4 on Active Defenses for the next turn?

I was unaware that there was an argument about this.

Reading the book, it states:

A failed knockdown roll can cause
“stun,” as can certain critical hit
results and some afflictions. If you are
stunned, you must Do Nothing on
your next turn. You may perform any
active defense while stunned, but your
defense rolls are at -4 and you cannot
retreat.
At the end of your turn, you may
roll against HT. On a success, you
recover from stun and can act normally
on subsequent turns

So that would seem to imply that once you recover, you don't suffer a -4. That is, so long as you are stunned, you're at a -4 to defense, which makes sense.

But I just noticed under Do Nothing that it says:

Active Defense: Any (unless you’re
tied up, etc.). If you are stunned, however,
your active defenses are at -4
until your next turn – even if you
recover.

Which is an odd phrasing, I'm at a -4 until my next turn. I suppose that means this:

If I stun you on my turn, during your turn you're at -4. At the end of your turn, you recover (because you're awesome)... No. I've lost the thread.

Turns are always in relation to yourself. My turn ends the moment before my turn begins.

So:
PA1..........PA2.........
.....PB1..........PB2.....
..........PC1..........PC2

If Player A stuns Player B during his 1st turn, then on Player B's first turn, he's stunned at at a -4 for his whole turn... which doesn't end until AFTER Player C has acted for the first time, and Player A has acted a second time. Then the moment before Player B acts a second time, he can roll to recover, at which point the -4 should disappear.

Hmmm.

I've been running it wrong.

[thom]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Not debated, the rule is quite clear. But it is not *the* next turn, it is until *his* next turn. This ensures everybody gets one swing at you while you are at -4. It's true anybody who's turn comes between the spellcaster's and yours gets two, (if you apply the effect immediately, which it is debatable whether you should) but avoiding that by having you recover on the spellcaster's turn would be rather strange.

OK first, off if the mage has a magic staff, he can touch a foe 2 squares away at no penalty. The party wizard never casts the spell any other way-so there are no range penalties!

And as for this:

Active Defense: Any (unless you’re tied up, etc.). If you are stunned, however, your active defenses are at -4 until your next turn – even if you recover.

So:
Turn 1: orc attacks warrior in front of wizard
Turn 1 PC wizard Mental Stuns orc over ally's shoulder with his magic staff; so the contest is 15 vs orc's Will 10 with no range penalties!

Turn 2: faster warriors whale away at orc with -4 to Active Defenses

Turn 2: orc makes his IQ 10 roll and is no longer stunned (he recovers). But he still has -4 to his Active Defenses for another turn! Correct?

Turn 2: wizard does something else

Turn 3: faster warriors whale away on orc who still has -4 to his Active Defenses?

Turn 3: orc (assuming he miraculously survived) now finally gets to defend normally.

Now do you see my concern?

EDIT: Yes Mailanka, my wizard PC helpfully pointed out the whole "Do Nothing" problem for me!

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Turns are always in relation to yourself. My turn ends the moment before my turn begins.

So:
PA1..........PA2.........
.....PB1..........PB2.....
..........PC1..........PC2

If Player A stuns Player B during his 1st turn, then on Player B's first turn, he's stunned at at a -4 for his whole turn... which doesn't end until AFTER Player C has acted for the first time, and Player A has acted a second time. Then the moment before Player B acts a second time, he can roll to recover, at which point the -4 should disappear.

Hmmm.

I've been running it wrong.

PA1 Cast Spell
PB1 Does Nothing and Roll Successfully
PC1 Attack PB who at -4 to defined because their turn has not ended.
PA2 Attack PB who at -4 to defined because their turn has not ended.
PB2 Turns end as his new Turn begins and is no longer at -4 and can act freely.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by malloyd

It really sounds like you are both assuming universal turns. GURPS doesn't have those, it has individual ones. You don't make defense rolls on your turn, but on somebody else's, so the ones you make after the turn you roll to recover aren't subsequent turns, it's not your turn again yet.

? I can't say as to thom's assumptions, but I'm pretty clear on the rules as they apply to stunning. Except for that "you" that sneaked in, the quote is taken directly from Effects of Stun, B420.

[thom]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

?...the quote is taken directly from Effects of Stun, B420.

Yes but the problem is with the verbiage under the Do Nothing Maneuver, B364; specifically:

Active Defense: Any (unless you’re tied up, etc.). If you are stunned, however,
your active defenses are at -4 until your next turn – even if you recover.

How do you guys read this? Does the -4 last 1 or 2 of the victim's turns?

[malloyd]

Lets suppose in order of speed we have 4 characters, Target, A, Mage and B

One possible flow is

(some unimportant set of prior turns)
Target: Steps and Attack Mage with his knife, rolls poorly and misses
A: Attacks Target, who defends normally, since Step and Attack allows normal defenses.
Mage: Casts stunning spell at Target, at no range penalty since Target is standing right next to him thanks to stepping into range to attack. Target fails his resistance roll.
B: Attacks Target, who might defend either normally or at -4 (the actual debatable point).
Target: Does Nothing, rolls to recover and succeeds
A: Attacks Target, who defends at -4
Mage: Casts a spell at target, who successfully resists normally, since resistance rolls aren't at a penalty.
B: Attacks Target, who'd defend at -4.
Target: Stabs Mage and Steps a hex away from everybody.... From here on out Target's defenses aren't at -4 anymore, but back those allowed after Step and Attack.
(some unimportant set of following turns)

Edit: Note that this sequence is *completely unchanged* if the order of speeds is actually B Target A Mage, or A Mage B Target. Something different happened way back at the beginning of that first set of unimportant prior turns, but it doesn't matter at this point. There isn't any universal turn restarting just before every time the first person in that sequence acts.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by thom

Yes but the problem is with the verbiage under the Do Nothing Maneuver, B364; specifically:

Active Defense: Any (unless you’re tied up, etc.). If you are stunned, however,
your active defenses are at -4 until your next turn – even if you recover.

How do you guys read this? Does the -4 last 1 or 2 of the victim's turns?

Assuming you make the first roll to recover, it lasts just one of the character's turns. This old post of Kromm's, in response to a related question, should make it more clear.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by thom

Yes but the problem is with the verbiage under the Do Nothing Maneuver, B364; specifically:

Active Defense: Any (unless you’re tied up, etc.). If you are stunned, however,
your active defenses are at -4 until your next turn – even if you recover.

How do you guys read this? Does the -4 last 1 or 2 of the victim's turns?

It lasts between 1 and 2, typically.

It starts when they are stunned, on the wizard's turn.

On their turn, they Do Nothing and roll to recover. I assume they succeed.

The -4 continues until the start of their turn after the successful recovery roll. On that turn they can act normally and with no penalty.

(This is also what roguebfl said.)

[thom]

Originally Posted by malloyd

B: Attacks Target, who might defend either normally or at -4 (the actual debatable point).

Aha! We have a breakthrough. No I agree that Target must defend at -4 at this point.

Originally Posted by malloyd

Target: Does Nothing, rolls to recover and succeeds
A: Attacks Target, who defends at -4

This is what some have debated-whether or not the -4 still applies even after Target recovers from the stun.

::sigh:: your reference from Kromm seems to seal the deal however.

Which still leaves me with, is Mental Stun at a cost of 2 (1 with skill 15) too cheap for what it does?

I'm considering raising the cost to 3 FP (2 with skill 15) to counterbalance the effects.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by thom

This is what some have debated-whether or not the -4 still applies even after Target recovers from the stun.

::sigh:: your reference from Kromm seems to seal the deal however.

Note what happens to the fight if that wasn't the case and it involved only the Mage and the Target.

Mage casts spell, Target is stunned
Target rolls to recover
Mage attacks target

With the RAW target defends at -4, with the alternate interpretation there is no penalty. Mage gets no benefit at all from his spell, he's no better off than if he had attacked the first turn, in exchange for the risk he'd have totally wasted his turn if Target *had* resisted. Of course he could still win if Target *hadn't* recovered, so he'd be trading his fatigue for the chance the target will fail two consecutive rolls (one to resist, one to recover), which might not be totally useless, but still.