Stunned after taking Wait maneuver

[Hide]

Originally Posted by Anthony

(...) It is an explicit property of the Do Nothing maneuver that you can recover from stunning, and the rules for stunning do not permit any action other than Do Nothing and do not specify any other means of recovery.

Yeah, but the turn has not come into play. When the wait is interrupted, the turn comes into play. Then it is "do nothing". Then the turn ends and comes the chance to recover from stun before round#1 ends.

Recovery is an event, not an option.

You must take "do nothing" not in the sense to recover, but in the sense that you are stunned and that's the only option left. Recovery will happen, regardless of "doing nothing".

If the bear is slower than the player, he has a chance to recover, that is all he gets. He won't be able to attack or do something else because the rules for wait say so.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Hide

Yeah, but the turn has not come into play. When the wait is interrupted, the turn comes into play.

Nope. The wait being triggered is a wait being triggered, it is not a turn.

[Hide]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Nope. The wait being triggered is a wait being triggered, it is not a turn.

I agree with you; but I am referring to an interrupted wait.

[Harald387]

Threads like this are why GURPS has a bad rep.

The sequence goes like this:

Player: I Wait; if the Orc comes into reach, I hit him.
GM: The Orc casts Mental Stun. Roll to resist.
Player: Failed. I'm stunned.
GM: The Orc Steps into an adjacent hex.
Player: That triggers my Wait!
GM: No, you're Stunned - you can't act. But it's your turn now.
Player: I Do Nothing. <roll> I'm no longer stunned.

This isn't complicated, and trying to rules-lawyer around it is just the sort of argumentative behavior that would get you ejected from most games.

[hal]

Gonna post specifics...

pg 363 of GURPS Basic Set Campaigns:

A given participant’s turn is the one-second period that stretches from when he chooses a maneuver until his next opportunity to select a maneuver.

Maneuvers are defined as:

DO NOTHING
MOVE
CHANGE POSTURE
AIM
EVALUATE
ATTACK
FEINT
ALL-OUT ATTACK
MOVE AND ATTACK
ALL-OUT DEFENSE
CONCENTRATE
READY
WAIT (which can transform into these and only these maneuvers)

• Attack
• Feint
• All-Out Attack (you must specify the option before acting)
• Ready

As specified under the rules for unstunning, you must be STUNNED at the start of your turn AND you must choose the do nothing maneuver, at the end of which, you may roll to unstun. If you fail to unstun, you remain in the unstunned state.

As mentioned elsewhere - the moment you are stunned, you immediately ENTER the stunned state regardless of when it occurs. Someone who is waiting, interrupts your movement and strikes - stunning your character, you are stunned then and there. No ability to finish movement, no ability to conclude your turn's attack (if there were any planned). You remain stunned until your NEXT ability to select a maneuver occurs, at which point it MUST be a "Do Nothing" maneuver before you can attempt to unstun.

Now, my point about the wait maneuver and why I do not like it is this:

Let's say your character is moving towards my waiting character. Let's further stipulate that he can move a total of 5 hexes per turn. That means that he essentially takes 1/5th of a second to move one hex, 2/5ths of a second to move 2 hexes, etc. If your character moves 4 hexes before my wait triggers - allowing me to attack, my character will have "wasted" 4/5ths of a second before I could connect with my attacking weapon against your body. This is NOT a zero amount of time passing until you move adjacent.

This is largely why - when I have characters whose sequence is A, B, C, D, and E - and C waits to act just before D or acts to interrupt D, the new sequence becomes A, B, D, C, and E. I have hated the time anomaly since GURPS 2nd edition came out. None the less...

RAW is specific: Stunning can only be recovered from AFTER you take a "Do Nothing" maneuver after being stunned. One can not for example, take a wait and convert it to "do nothing". That is not an allowable maneuver for Wait to convert to.

In the end? If you want to house rule it (Just as I do with Wait in my campaign worlds) - I'd say "go for it". However, one has to be in a stunned state before one can recover from it. If while waiting, one is stunned, then the stun takes place immediately (per the rules for stunning) and the character then has to wait until they have a turn in which they can specifically choose the "Do nothing" option. Wait is not specifically do nothing - otherwise, do nothing can be interchangeable with Wait instead of being distinctly different.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The wait is finalized -- it is place. It has not been triggered, but that's not a requirement.

"... you've chosen, executed, and ended a maneuver..."

Chosen, check. Executed? Eh... okay check. Ended? No check.

Yes. It is an explicit property of the Do Nothing maneuver that you can recover from stunning, and the rules for stunning do not permit any action other than Do Nothing and do not specify any other means of recovery.

Please post the explicit statement. That's my issue with this ruling, it's relying on the implicit (which I can see but disagree with for PC empowerment reasons).


And note, I'm just splitting this fine hair for fun. I already have the way I'm doing it, it's unlikely (but not impossible*) someone will post a reason that will change my mind.



* For instance, I have the roll at the start of a turn following a turn spent Stunned†. As mentioned earlier in thread this helps to reduce confusion about tracking defense penalties from a Stun. Also it means that requiring a full turn of Do Nothing means more PCs find themselves 'losing 2 turns' to a Stun if they Wait which further makes Wait unattractive (see my other arguments about my feelings on the attractiveness of Wait).

† One this brings Mental Stun from Surprise into line with the way Stun works (without reworking the timing on Surprise Mental Stun), Two it means a PC gets more actions (occasionally) which I prefer rather than making them (occasionally) feel ripped off. And this goes both ways, Stun a foe right before it's turn and you might be 'wasting' a Stun (which is an even less frequency of occurrence than a PC being stunned right before they get a new turn or during their Wait).

Originally Posted by Anthony

RAW is specific:

Actually it isn't in the way you think, let's go through the steps:

1 - "If you are stunned, you must Do Nothing on your next turn. You may perform any active defense while stunned, but your defense rolls are at -4 and you cannot retreat."

Okay, this is explicit, if you are stunned you must Do Nothing on your next turn. However, there is an 'unless' coming. Likewise, you are penalized on your defenses while stunned.

2 - "At the end of your turn, you may roll against HT. On a success, you recover from stun and can act normally on subsequent turns. On a failure, you remain stunned; your next maneuver must also be Do Nothing, but you get another roll at the end of that turn . . . and so on, until you recover from stun."

Note, it does not say "at the end of your Do Nothing turn", just the "the end of your turn". You are arguing an implicit, a RAI. Which is cool, but it ain't RAW (winksmiley.gif).

So, the if/then/likewise/unless statement goes as follows:

If stunned, Do Nothing on next turn, unless you recover at the end of your turn, in which case you do not need to choose Do Nothing as a maneuver on your following turn.


As I said, this comes down to "when does a Wait end". By RAW, a Wait does not end until it is executed. At which point the turn is finalized and all 'end of turn results' should be dealt with.



[EDIT]
Here I post the DFRPG response which casts the RAI into light:

"If you’re stunned, you have ‑4 to active defenses and can’t retreat. On your next turn, you must Do Nothing and try a HT roll. Success lets you act normally on later turns. Failure leaves you stunned – try again next turn!"

So this makes the "make a HT roll to recover after taking a Do Nothing maneuver" clear. It's RAW in DFRPG. Yet another tall root comes out of the underbrush to catch me in the knees.

And another argument for a 4.5 GURPS Basic.
[/EDIT]

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

"... you've chosen, executed, and ended a maneuver..."

Chosen, check. Executed? Eh... okay check. Ended? No check.

Actually, what does this have to do with anything? Your turn runs from "you select a maneuver" until "you have the opportunity to select your next maneuver". A wait being triggered is not "opportunity to select your next maneuver", it transforms your existing maneuver.

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Please post the explicit statement.

B364: "Someone who is conscious but stunned or surprised must take this maneuver. On each turn of Do Nothing, he may attempt a HT roll to recover from physical stun or an IQ roll to recover from mental stun"

Originally Posted by evileeyore

As I said, this comes down to "when does a Wait end".

No, it really doesn't matter. Wait cannot become Do Nothing, and only Do Nothing has the ability to remove stun.

It would probably be clearer if "recover from stun" was an action of its own.

[Hide]

Originally Posted by Harald387

The sequence goes like this:
Player: I Wait; if the Orc comes into reach, I hit him.
GM: The Orc casts Mental Stun. Roll to resist.
Player: Failed. I'm stunned.
GM: The Orc Steps into an adjacent hex.
Player: That triggers my Wait!
GM: No, you're Stunned - you can't act. But it's your turn now.
Player: I Do Nothing. <roll> I'm no longer stunned.

Very good! I only add that this should happen during round#1, since the wait is involved; not round until round #2.

Originally Posted by evileeyore

"... you've chosen, executed, and ended a maneuver..." (...) Chosen, check. Executed? Eh... okay check. Ended? No check. (...) Note, it does not say "at the end of your Do Nothing turn", just the "the end of your turn". You are arguing an implicit, a RAI. Which is cool, but it ain't RAW

And the moment when the player -ends- their wait (when not executing the wait) is finishing the round.

Originally Posted by Anthony

(...) Wait cannot become Do Nothing, and only Do Nothing has the ability to remove stun.

It does not become anything, the wait is interrupted as if you did nothing to begin with.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Hide

And the moment when the player -ends- their wait (when not executing the wait) is finishing the round.

Incorrect. The player ends their turn the next time they have an opportunity to choose an action. Whether the wait triggered is not relevant, though if the wait does not trigger before the end of the turn it is lost.

Originally Posted by Hide

It does not become anything, the wait is interrupted as if you did nothing to begin with.

The action remains 'wait'. 'Wait' is not 'Do Nothing'.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Actually, what does this have to do with anything?

3.4.1.3 In combat, when does your turn end?
Your turn ends after you've chosen, executed, and ended a maneuver – Attack, Concentrate, etc. For the sole purpose of active defenses, your turn has consequences that extend past that period, until you choose your next maneuver. Thus, one could say your turn doesn't end until your next one begins. But everything that refers to turns in the Basic Set – with the sole exception of the active defense rules – hews to the more restricted usage above.

Bolding is mine. Your turn 'basically' ends with "ended a maneuver".

That is where the entire argument of "But the PC's turn is not over yet when they are getting stunned" comes from.

Originally Posted by Anthony

B364: "Someone who is conscious but stunned or surprised must take this maneuver. On each turn of Do Nothing, he may attempt a HT roll to recover from physical stun or an IQ roll to recover from mental stun"

Returning to devil's advocacy, that doesn't say "you can only ever attempt to recover from stun at the end of a Do Nothing Maneuver" and, to point it out again, recovering from Mental Stun from Surprise is resolved at the start of every turn, not the end.*

...and only Do Nothing has the ability to remove stun.

That's actually false. See above reference to Mental Stun from Surprise. By RIA, sure. But it's not as 'clearly written' as you claim it is in Basic.

It would probably be clearer if "recover from stun" was an action of its own.

It would actually be clearer if the stun rules in Basic were written as they are in DFRPG.


* Which is further clarified in DFRPG by getting rid of Total Surprise and only allowing Partial Surprise, which DFRPG simply calls Surprise and, as with normal Stun rules in DFRPG, is recovered from only at the end of a Do Nothing maneuver.


I really need to sit down and go through DFRPG and catalogue every rules change and RAI clarification that DFRPG makes...