Questions about fliers in combat

[Skarg]

I've been playing combats with fliers and am not clear on some rules details. Curious if we can get an opinion from guy (or anyone).

1. Can a multi-hex flying figure "push" smaller figures the way others can? If so, is there any added risk or disadvantage?

2. Does a figure need to be disengaged in order to go from being on the ground to flying?

3. Can a figure with flying ability "Disengage" upwards to flying state out of reach of figures on the ground? (If so, can it do so from the ground, or does it need to be flying first?)

4. Can a flying figure move 1/2 flying MA and Dodge, getting both the -4 to hit fliers, and a 4/DX to hit for dodging?

5. If natural fliers are at -4 DX to attack figures on the ground with melee attacks, shouldn't the Flight spell give more than the -2 DX unfamiliarity penalty?

6. The rules say a flier can choose whether to be engaged by figures on the ground or not. If they do choose to do that, can they change their minds later? At which point in the sequence of play can they make that choice?

7. The dragonet rules say and attack on them is "at DX -4, or DX -8
for missile or thrown weapon attack." Is that in addition to the usual -4 to attack fliers?


My feeling tends to be:

1. The rules don't say, so I'd assume yes, but I can see logic arguments for no or for side-effects. I'd think they can't trample without landing.

2. The rules say it's a choice during the Movement phase. I'd tend to think it's a free choice at that point and engagement doesn't prevent it.

3. I would think yes a flier can Disengage from grounded figures upwards, as an action. I would tend to allow it even to figures on the ground, but could see ruling either way.

4. I think fliers can dodge. If they're huge, just apply to usual size modifier.

5. I think the Flight spell was written before the AM flying rules and is wrong. I tend to think Flight spell users should have at least as hard a time doing melee attacks as natural fliers, so that would be: -2 to cast spells, -6 to attack anyone with physical attacks (or spells which are targeted like them, such as missile spells or arcane staff attacks). Presumably there might by a Talent for flight familiarity which could raise that by 2.

6. I'd tend to think so, and that the choice would happen during the flier's movement phase each turn. So a flying figure engaged by ground figures could declare itself not engaged during its next movement phase.

7. I don't know. I think either it means Dragonets are normal -4 to hit with melee while fling, and an additional -4 to hit with missiles while flying, OR it's an additional -4 and -8 to hit flying dragonets while flying, for a total -8 with melee attacks or -12 while flying.

[zot]

My opinion on engagement is that it still works the same way. If a flier is engaged, they have to use the disengage option just like anyone else -- they're in just as much danger of being hit as a ground-lubber is.

EDIT: One hex upwards would make sense as a possibility for fliers.

[hcobb]

Does a moving flyer get the same size boost to ignore engagement as moving horsemen?

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Does a moving flyer get the same size boost to ignore engagement as moving horsemen?

I'd assume so, though that rule only mentions 2-hex to 3-hex adjustment at MA 8... fliers (especially large dragons) add a lot of other numeric possibilities. I think I'd say that at MA 8+, a 2-hex or larger flier gets to ignore one more ground figure via momentum while still being able to attack, push, or attempt HTH.

However really I think flying puts the whole idea of Engagement under even greater sense-making strain that usual, but this isn't the house rules sub-forum.

[Skarg]

More questions about fliers in combat:


8. When a multi-hex figure (e.g. a dragon) faces an opponent from more than one hex and therefore more than one direction on the target, does the multi-hex figure get the best or worst applicable attack modifier for facing?

9. How much can a flier change their altitude per turn? Does doing so cost any MA?

10. Do fliers need to only move 1 hex when Disbelieving, or can they move more? Casting spells?

11. Can illusions or summons which can fly be created to start out flying, or must they start on the ground and can only take off on the turn after they were created?

12. Gargoyles are said to "always" land for combat - does this mean they can or will not fight other fliers in the air?


What I would tend to say:

8. Use the facing that favors the defender, since I think the bonus for side/rear attacks is mainly about the defender not being able to see the attacker well. (However I might use less less favorable facing for determining whether a shield can help or not.)

9. I don't know of any rule, but I might think 1 MA per yard (per 4 feet?) of height.

10. Seems to me like they should probably be able to fly up to half MA and Disbelieve, or cast spells. Though RAW it looks like it might be 1 hex like everyone else, since there seems to be no mention of it as an exception.

11. I think they're intended to need to start on the ground.

12. I don't know. I'm tempted to say they need to land, though it has big balance effects one way or another.

[RobW]

Thought I would come here to discuss flying and engagement, instead of the how to kill dragons thread.

ITL p 104
A grounded creature which wishes to fly “takes off” at the beginning of its movement turn. On its first turn in the air, it has only half of its flying MA.

I read this passage and the prev and following context as more about general qualities of flight, and not about the more specific question of whether a flyer who is on the ground and engaged can fly out of engagement during movement.

What little detail there is about flying and combat starts with

ITL p 133
Combat involving flying figures (whether they have riders or not) is handled like any other combat.

My reaction to this entire section "Aerial Combat" is, except where it is otherwise explicit, flyers have no more options than non-flyers during movement. So no attacks during movement phase, but also no disengage.

I do like lars' idea of a disengage UP that could be taken by a flyer as an action. One could say the flyer would then be at distance 2 from the figures that had engaged it, so it could be jabbed (and dist=2 for thrown attacks). After disengaging UP, it is in the air, and so next turn has full flying MA.

[RobW]

Originally Posted by Skarg

More questions about fliers in combat:
9. How much can a flier change their altitude per turn? Does doing so cost any MA?

I haven't tested it, but my first thought is to imagine that the Melee map is 3d with layers, and to say a change of 1 hex in altitude costs 1MA. I wouldn't worry about angled ascent/descent paths to keep it simple.

Originally Posted by Skarg

10. Do fliers need to only move 1 hex when Disbelieving, or can they move more? Casting spells?

This question really makes me want to separate natural and magic flyers. For magic flyers that can hover etc I would treat just as if they were on the ground, that is, 1 hex and disbelieve/cast, 2 hexes and change weapons, etc. But for a pterodactyl or other flyer/glider that complies with natural law it feels logical they could (or maybe *forced* to) straight-line glide while doing these things. The implication is that natural flight might complicate things, eg more of a GURPS like movement where change of facing costs. So maybe not worth messing around for a relatively rare encounter.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by RobW

... I do like lars' idea of a disengage UP that could be taken by a flyer as an action. One could say the flyer would then be at distance 2 from the figures that had engaged it, so it could be jabbed (and dist=2 for thrown attacks). After disengaging UP, it is in the air, and so next turn has full flying MA.

Yes, after more thought and testing, I'm thinking the same way. So taking off and moving 1/2 flying MA is an option for Disengaged grounded fliers only. Engaged fliers can disengage UP, which puts them at vertical range 2 from ground figures and Disengaged.

Originally Posted by RobW

I haven't tested it, but my first thought is to imagine that the Melee map is 3d with layers, and to say a change of 1 hex in altitude costs 1MA. I wouldn't worry about angled ascent/descent paths to keep it simple.

Questions that leads me to are how high is each "hex in altitude"? It needs to interact with the both hand weapon reach and the -1-per-10-foot ranged penalty.

I think too that it should be easier/faster to go down than up. When I've wanted a quick & dirty flight movement system, I've generally invented:

* A flier can go down for no MA cost, up to the amount you'd naturally fall (which is 200-400 feet (depending on air resistance) per 5 seconds from a stationary drop).

* A flier can go up my spending MA at some fraction of what it costs to move sideways - e.g. it might at least cost double to gain altitutde.

Originally Posted by RobW

This question really makes me want to separate natural and magic flyers. For magic flyers that can hover etc I would treat just as if they were on the ground, that is, 1 hex and disbelieve/cast, 2 hexes and change weapons, etc. But for a pterodactyl or other flyer/glider that complies with natural law it feels logical they could (or maybe *forced* to) straight-line glide while doing these things. The implication is that natural flight might complicate things, eg more of a GURPS like movement where change of facing costs. So maybe not worth messing around for a relatively rare encounter.

Yeah, I agree that it seems like Flight spell and other levitators would be like standing figures, but that natural winged fliers would be able/required to keep moving while doing other things (even if Engaged), but that requires house rules, and at some point there's a trade-off to be made between modeling and complexity.

Seems to me a simplest starting point might just be to define a fraction (1/4? 1/8? Varies by flier?) of winged flying MA that is their minimum, and allow and/or require at least that much forward movement (into a Front hex, can turn one facing per hex forward) in cases where standing figures would only move 1 hex.

[JLV]

I'll just re-post this here from the other thread:

Originally Posted by JLV

One possible solution is to "split" aerial creatures movement into halves -- they can move the first half or less of their MA during normal movement, engage in combat during their action (new Option: Flying Strike, allows one attack without becoming engaged with the target, but the target can strike back as well), and then a "post combat flying movement phase," where the flying creature may move up to the remaining half of their MA. It fits everything into the normal turn sequence, and at the same time clarifies an enormous number of issues with flying creatures. You could allow the flying creature to fly it's full MA during the FIRST movement phase, but if it flies more than half of its MA, then it cannot do a drive-by strike on an opponent. That should resolve most difficulties with this, at least in game terms...

I'm not suggesting this is THE answer, merely that it IS an answer that might help. I'd be interested in hearing thoughts on the idea.

[Skarg]

JLV, that sounds like a good house rule for handling fly-by attacks, to me.


Oh and about my question 12, I asked Steve about it and IIRC he said yes gargoyles can attack without landing. They just tend not to, and on reflection it makes sense usually since their DX tends to be about 11, so at -4, it's usually just not so effective for them to try to punch things while flying.