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Old 02-14-2019, 09:35 AM   #11
JohnPaulB
 
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Default Re: Attribute Bloat 'Re-Deux'

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Originally Posted by Chris Rice View Post
As I've said before, one solution to TFTs attribute bloat problem is to have more attributes.
Perhaps you can create a Mini-Me (sort of like Paranoia game) where your duplicate starts out same as the original character. Then you can siphon off your XP to the Mini-Me, building it up like your original character or differently. When your character dies, his "soul" is transferred to the Mini-Me who knows everything your original did before he dies. The Mini-Me is stored at a gated creche and delivered to a local religious institute that deals with this sort of thing.

Attribute bloat would become a thing of the past. Of course, it would wreck havoc with the social institutions.
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Old 02-14-2019, 12:24 PM   #12
Chris Rice
 
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Default Re: Attribute Bloat 'Re-Deux'

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Originally Posted by JohnPaulB View Post
Perhaps you can create a Mini-Me (sort of like Paranoia game) where your duplicate starts out same as the original character. Then you can siphon off your XP to the Mini-Me, building it up like your original character or differently. When your character dies, his "soul" is transferred to the Mini-Me who knows everything your original did before he dies. The Mini-Me is stored at a gated creche and delivered to a local religious institute that deals with this sort of thing.

Attribute bloat would become a thing of the past. Of course, it would wreck havoc with the social institutions.
I actually ran a short campaign along those lines, which was great fun. I don't know how it would fix the attribute bloat problem though, as nothing is lost.
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Old 02-14-2019, 12:45 PM   #13
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Default Re: Attribute Bloat 'Re-Deux'

While it's true that the Legacy revisions don't actually set a 'hard' limit on character attributes, the extremely high XP costs do effectively cap progression by 40-points. Unfortunately, I'm not sure this addresses the core problem... scaling the difficulty in accomplishing in-game tasks or engaging in combat.

As attributes increase, typical die-rolls get easier which I think most of us agree is the real issue w/ attribute 'bloat', but as I alluded to earlier, this is essentially the same problem that high-level D&D characters have. It seems more pronounced in TFT (the classic ruleset), however, because most in-game challenges don't scale naturally to keep up w/ character advancement. The Legacy version attempts to resolve this by effectively capping characters to 40-points, but to me that seems like the equivalent of limiting a D&D character to 10th level.

And while I also agree that characters in this 'veteran' range are great to play, a robust game system should provide for reasonable options should players want to push into the more 'legendary' category for their characters.
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Old 02-15-2019, 08:42 AM   #14
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Default Re: Attribute Bloat 'Re-Deux'

So what are the character types you get at the high 30s?

UC V - ST 12 DX 14 IQ 14 (zero variation)

Goblin potion maker - ST 6 DX 15 IQ 14 and a +2 charm

Goblin enchanter - ST 6 DX 10 IQ 20

Master Fencer - ST 10 DX 14 IQ 13 with two sabers.

Goblin master thief - ST 6 DX 14 IQ 12 (for Master Locksmith, a starting character.)
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Old 02-15-2019, 09:22 AM   #15
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Default Re: Attribute Bloat 'Re-Deux'

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So what are the character types you get at the high 80s?
Not sure what you mean by "high 80s". Is that supposed to be "high 30s"?

When I look at the character lifecycle in RPGs, regardless of the system, I break it down into 3 stages...
  • Novice
  • Veteran
  • Legend

A good system should support viable play options for each of these levels. The examples you listed (except for maybe the last one) would fall into the 'veteran' category IMO, which I agree is probably the best range to play in, but I also enjoy the 'legendary' stage quite a bit as well (especially when you have a good GM).

Sometimes there will be a fourth stage for 'mythic' or 'epic' characters, but for me, that level of play is less critical to maintaining the players' engagement and enjoyment of the game.
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Old 02-15-2019, 10:38 AM   #16
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Default Re: Attribute Bloat 'Re-Deux'

There are so many good characters with stat totals in the high 30's (to perhaps 40) I hardly know where to start. Here's a few that come immediately to mind:

Knight (ST 13, DX 14, IQ 10) mail, kite shield, bastard sword, lance, etc.

Tarzan (ST 13 DX 15 IQ 12) expert naturalist, woodsman, climbing, acrobatics, knife, stealth, etc.

Necromancer (ST 8 DX 11 IQ 20) zombie, drain strength, astral projection, etc.)

Musketeer (ST 9 DX 16 IQ 11) guns, missile weapons, sword, fencing, carousing, courtly graces, sex appeal, brawling

I could go on all day
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Old 02-15-2019, 09:30 PM   #17
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Default Re: Attribute Bloat 'Re-Deux'

I'm thinking to limit the maximum level of growth for attributes at +33% of the starting point (Fractions Rounded Up).

So a classic starting PC at ST 12 DX 12 IQ 8 can naturally become ST 16 DX 16 IQ 11.

A wizard ST 10 DX 10 IQ 12 can naturally become ST 14 DX 14 IQ 16

Another Wizard starting at ST 8 DX 9 IQ 15 can naturally become ST 11 DX 12 and IQ 20.

This cancels once forever the "bloat" problem as PCs stays in a "human range" and is somewhat realistic because PCs have a growth compatible and appropriate with their initial stats because, for example, who starts with low IQ cannot become a genius.

Basically no PCs can go beyond 42-43.
At this point attributes can have the same cost of the old TFT or a slightly superior cost to permit players to reach their maximum in a reasonable time, while talents and skills are at the new cost.

note I use the old system to assign experience ( my players have totally rejected the new way to assign experience for Legacy Rules)

not yet tested, but it could work for my group
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Old 02-15-2019, 11:03 PM   #18
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Default Re: Attribute Bloat 'Re-Deux'

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Originally Posted by ecz View Post
I'm thinking to limit the maximum level of growth for attributes at +33% of the starting point (Fractions Rounded Up).

So a classic starting PC at ST 12 DX 12 IQ 8 can naturally become ST 16 DX 16 IQ 11.

A wizard ST 10 DX 10 IQ 12 can naturally become ST 14 DX 14 IQ 16

Another Wizard starting at ST 8 DX 9 IQ 15 can naturally become ST 11 DX 12 and IQ 20.

This cancels once forever the "bloat" problem as PCs stays in a "human range" and is somewhat realistic because PCs have a growth compatible and appropriate with their initial stats because, for example, who starts with low IQ cannot become a genius.
...
Cool. I have been stewing house rules for a system that has similar goals and effects. My current mechanics are something like:

* Average people with 8 discretionary points have 0-4 "core" extra points, and 0-4 other extra points. Average total 30. Usual starting PCs have 4 of each, totaling 32.

* The "core" points are spent during creation, and represent your inherent gifts and potential, are what determine the cost to increase an attribute, and take XP like SJ's original new idea for attribute XP costs, where the cost is based on the value of each attribute itself, not the total points.

* The scale however starts at your race's minimum plus whatever core points you allocated to it.

* The cost table lets you get the first 1-2 points on top of core relatively cheaply, but then it gets much more expensive.

This allows me to model the long-term PCs we actually had in our old TFT games, and also adds a concept of people having different kinds of potential.
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Old 02-16-2019, 06:15 AM   #19
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Default Re: Attribute Bloat 'Re-Deux'

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I'm thinking to limit the maximum level of growth for attributes at +33% of the starting point (Fractions Rounded Up)...
I like the solutions in the previous two posts a lot. I'd go a little further with Skarg's "core points" idea and give another 1d6 of core points before the cost starts increasing exponentially. Maybe the GM makes the roll and keeps it secret from the player, so they don't know when they're going max out until they get there.

Great ideas folks!
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Old 02-16-2019, 06:27 AM   #20
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Default Re: Attribute Bloat 'Re-Deux'

How do you avoid talent bloat? Other than a wizard who is GMICy and knows UC V would be ST 12 DX 14 IQ 20 and hence 46 attribute points, the last of which costs a quarter of a million of the half million total XPs.
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