06-20-2013, 02:09 PM | #41 | |
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Seattle, WA
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Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors
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06-20-2013, 02:43 PM | #42 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors
Those 'minor crushing hits to the skull' are usually significant speed collisions with solid objects, which would be lethal if the same collision had involved a pointed object. Collisions routinely involve extremely high energies relative to the resulting injuries.
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06-20-2013, 05:56 PM | #43 | |
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors
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Attacking the brain directly above the point where it fuses with the spine should have much the same effect. The hindbrain at that location is not part of the brain you can do without. Putting your large knife through the skull at the temple might only blind and lobotomize your target but there are parts of the brain that really are vital..
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06-20-2013, 06:14 PM | #44 | ||||
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors
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Just like there's nothing in the system that says characters have bodily functions that get rid of the excess matter they consume, but a GM might still call for HT rolls with increasing penalties for a character who tried to stand absolutely still somewhere for hours on end shortly after drinking lots of fluids. As with other matters not detailed in the rulebooks, but potentially vital for some situation, the GM should absolutely adjudicate this based on the situation and allow the right skills to be used to minimise any problems. So, just like Hiking, Soldier or Survival might be of use to avoid drinking too much before a PC has to play a statue for a few hours (and avoid looking like a cupid in a fountain), Wrestling or Judo plays a role in reducing the noise someone makes as he dies. Quote:
And if you drop the sentry, his rifle might discharge and even if it doesn't, he'll certainly make a noise as he lands. And, worst case scenario, he wasn't dead as he dropped, he was stunned or faking. Real world sentry removal is predicated on the soldier not having a magical sense about the health of the sentry. If you tell your players exactly what their attacks accomplished, as opposed to what their characters perceive about the effects of their attacks, a lot of the difficulty disappears. Quote:
The player doesn't know if his first thrust killed the sentry, stunned him or just nicked him. He doesn't know if the sentry is mentally stunned, physically stunned from wounds or unconscious and starting to fall. A sudden drop might be unconciousness, it might be a clever way to get out of a one-handed grapple by faking weakness and using gravity. The PC pretty much has to assume that until he's had time to make thoroughly sure, the sentry is still dangerous and still capable of shouting or firing his weapon. That means he can't afford to let him slip from a grapple which controls his Face (mouth which can scream) while simultaneously preventing him from firing a weapon, falling down or dropping anything heavy so that it clatters around. And it's just not practical to do all of the above with one hand. Which is why I use house-rules in my games that are based on 3e rules for more severe arterial bleeding. But even without them, note that explaining the eventual collapse of a wounded character from a failed HT check as succumbing to blood loss is sensible and fits with the rules. Quote:
If you just let him go as soon as you think he's lost consciousness, you might find that he was just stunned and the first warning you get might be him shouting or firing. As for why it helps to hold him for that long? Well, since a dying scream is one of those GM's judgment things that still affect gameplay, but don't have explicit rules, you'll have to hope that waiting until the sentry was definitely dead means he won't make one. He may have tried at whatever second he actually died (or lost consciousness), but at that point, you were holding him in a grapple which prevented the sound from being as loud as it otherwise would have been.
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06-20-2013, 06:24 PM | #45 | |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors
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Problem is that it's usually either a perfect kill or the point of the knife slides off a vertabrae. In which case you have an annoyed and loud sentry. In GURPS terms, you'd use a Reversed Grip knife to strike for the Spine in the Neck. Personally, I'd allow targeting a specific point on the Spine, the one corresponding to the target area of a matador, at the -11 Kromm wants to use for targeting the Spine in the neck in general. That would allow the DR 3 to become DR 1 if you're using an Impaling weapon, which makes this practical for someone skilled enough. Obviously only works from behind. You can also strike upwards behind the ear and into the brain. Or at the base of the skull, angling upwards. I'd call both equally difficult as an Eye hit, but only possible from behind. Behind the ear would have the same effects as an Eye hit, minus blinding, i.e. Skull without DR. Base of the skull might give the DR 3 of the Spine, which you could halve by taking an extra -2 to hit. None of those, however, are used by real soldiers in real life. Because they require too much skill and too much ST to be reliably useful. Even a ST 14 soldier with Knife-15 is not going to be able to pull them off reliably. You need something closer to ST 17 and Knife-20. And that's something real soldiers generally don't have. Rambo, though...
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06-21-2013, 06:30 AM | #46 | ||||||
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors
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Houserule maybe, but you seem to prefer to define the duration as exactly long enough to make not doing things the way you prefer into a disaster. Quote:
Or we could suppose that holding someone uprght when they're collapsing doesn't actually require enough ST to pick them up in two seconds... Quote:
One stab, maybe the guy's not even seriously injured. Stab a dozen or so times and the guy is pretty definitely below zero HP. Don't trust that either, you can always keep stabbing. Quote:
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06-21-2013, 06:41 AM | #47 |
GURPS FAQ Keeper
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyïv, Ukraine
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Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors
I'm starting to get the feeling that Choke Hold + Throw From Lock is the right way to go for sentry removal. Prevents screams, adds a stun, does huge damage, maintains grapple. (Technically it's not called From Lock, but the choke hold still counts as a grapple, so you can still throw-and-keep-choking-on-the-ground.)
Last edited by vicky_molokh; 06-21-2013 at 06:46 AM. |
06-21-2013, 06:48 AM | #48 | |
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors
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I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident. |
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06-21-2013, 06:54 AM | #49 | |
GURPS FAQ Keeper
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyïv, Ukraine
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Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors
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Even so . . . still Choke Hold seems good. In many ways it has the same effects as making a single stab followed by holding on with two arms and hoping that it was good enough to kill in 30 seconds. But with one Technique. |
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06-21-2013, 07:24 AM | #50 | ||
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors
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In the first second, the sentry is probably going to be mentally stunned if you managed to sneak up on him, but beyond that you have no guarantee. If he isn't mentally stunned (say, thanks to him being alerted to your presence and having Combat Reflexes), you still have a better chance of keeping him restrained one-armed for one second than you do for keeping him restrained one-armed for the amount of time it takes to stab him to death. Personally, I'd also rule that dedicating an entire round to restraining someone (as opposed to restraining someone while making an Attack action) should probably give a bonus to doing so, regardless of the number of arms involved. |
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Tags |
guns, sentry removal, suppressor |
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