GURPS pitch to d20 players

[robertsconley]

Originally Posted by DemiBenson

You can truly make whatever kind of character you want. No classes, no alignment, no weird class restrictions, nothing to pigeon-hole your character. Want to make a fighter who does magic, but also knows loads of skills? You can do that, and it won’t affect your future growth at all

Having dealt with this issue since switching away from AD&D to Fantasy Hero in the mid 80s, then slightly later to GURPS. My experiences that players look for two things from alternative to D&D.

1) They want to make their character their way, customized how they like it.
2) They think D&D combat and other task resolution mechanics are lacking.

The problem is that both of these issues have been effectively addressed by D&D editions since the advent of 3.0. In a way that has less overhead than what GURPS, Hero System and other similar system do.

The key mechanics that address this in later editions of D&D are
Multi-classing.
Each level you can take a different class. In 3.X with all their supplements went overboard with this. But the core books started out solid in this regard. Keep in mind that post 3.0, D&D character are a package of attributes, skills, abilities just like GURPS character. They have different names and are acquired differently but functionally work the same.

5th edition continues the tradition as an option. And it is a common option that many campaign take including some that I participate in. In general I don't allow this for any 5e campaign I run.

The way to think of this in GURPS terms, is that each class 3rd edition and onwards is a template. With each level a package within that template. As you level you can take the next package in your template or pick the first package from another template. Each package has a set of skills, and special abilities.

Combat and Task Resolution
While it is a stretch to call post 3.0 combat grounded in realism however since that addition. D&D Combat offers and continues to offer a wide range of tactical choices. Post 3.0 D&D combat is just as rich and detailed as what GURPS has to offer.

In fact with D&D 4.0 it got so detailed that combat even at low levels look as long as GURPS combat with all the options to resolved. In D&D 3.X that problem existed with high level combat with it many different status effect abilities and spells. D&D 5e dialed this back considerably. Not quite as fast as classic D&D but way faster across all levels than 3.X and especially 4e.

The same with Task Resolution, post 3.0, D&D editions feature skill systems and use them extensively to resolved many situation. While not as detailed GURPS, characters of the same class can choose different skills and gain some variety.

What GURPS bring to the table?
In a word customization. See my view that any edition of D&D mechanics are comprised of two major component. The system (combat, spellcasting, how characters are defined), and the list (classes, spells, monsters, treasure, etc). Most of the feel of any edition of D&D is wrapped up in its list.

In my neck of the publishing woods, I am familiar with a lot of folks making their own takes. The ones that feel very different than their progenitors nearly always does this in part by altering the list. Have a different set of classes, a different list of monsters, etc.

You can see this for 5th edition with Adventure in Middle Earth. AiME has mostly the same system, but very different lists to make it feel like a Middle Earth RPG rather than a D&D RPG.

What GURPS does is make customization easy. Yeah there been a lot of criticism about the lack of ready made content. But one things GURPS has always done well is offer a toolkit to allow you to run the setting exactly how it written rather than compromising with the mechanics. GURPS has realism options for combat, it has fantastic options for combat. It has several different ways of doing magic.

Having written my stuff in GURPS and then later in several edition D&D. I have to say customizing stuff is way easier in GURPS if you like the detail.

My advice is to sell the players on the campaign, you are running with GURPS. Explain to them it takes advantage of what GURPS has a toolkit and won't run the same way in D&D 5e or an earlier edition.

Explain to them that GURPS has allows them to describe what it is they do as their character in plain English and there will be a mechanic to help them resolve that. There is little to no abstraction in how GURPS operate. In most cases if a player wants to do something specific there is a rule to cover it. That it makes sense in terms of the larger system.

But keep in mind that most players are OK with finessing the fine details so the key selling point will be the campaign you want to run.

Wrapping it up
In recent years I put a lot of effort into making the stuff I share work with classic editions of D&D. However it still doesn't capture everything I did with the GURPS version. The details are just not there. And if I tried to add them in at some point, I might as well being playing or sharing GURPS materials.

So again my advice? Sell the players on the campaign using GURPS not GURPS itself.

[GWJ]

It’s difficult to min-max a character, which takes the pressure off making PCs - you get to make an interesting character if you want, instead of being forced to make one that fits a tactical niche

I wouldn't say it's difficult. I would say it's redundant. I was playing D&D 3.5 exclusively for ~5-10 years. Character creation often was almost like a separate mini-game itself, especially when creating high-level characters.

In GURPS you just take what you want, and pay for this. The only limitation is your GM allowance. Do you want to deal horrible amount of damage? Just take an adequate advantage at adequate level, if your GM agrees. Do you want to be untouchable? Some crazy levels of DR, or similar advantage. That's what I like. My D&D-esque munchkins' are not munchkins anymore, when we play GURPS.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by GWJ

I wouldn't say it's difficult. I would say it's redundant. I was playing D&D 3.5 exclusively for ~5-10 years. Character creation often was almost like a separate mini-game itself, especially when creating high-level characters.

In GURPS you just take what you want, and pay for this. The only limitation is your GM allowance. Do you want to deal horrible amount of damage? Just take an adequate advantage at adequate level, if your GM agrees. Do you want to be untouchable? Some crazy levels of DR, or similar advantage. That's what I like. My D&D-esque munchkins' are not munchkins anymore, when we play GURPS.

This is not really true. GURPS actually demands a certain amount of optimization in juggling attributes, secondary characteristics, talents, and skills, so you get the maximum amount of skill for your character points. Dungeon Fantasy templates mostly do this for you, but there are edge cases where they fail, and they're more likely to fail when you start throwing in various lenses.

Then there are deeper levels of optimization that most GMs will want to veto. Stuff getting your skill level in a spell really high so you can abuse casting it (or at least maintaining it) for free. Or loading up your advantages with many limitations so your 100 point ability only costs 20 points. Or abusing Gadgeteer. I GM'd a game where I allowed stuff like that once, and it was a hoot, except the one guy who didn't lean hard into those tricks wound up very frustrated.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

GURPS actually demands a certain amount of optimization in juggling attributes, secondary characteristics, talents, and skills, so you get the maximum amount of skill for your character points.

GURPS does not demand this. YOU may want to do it, but many people don't care about optimizing points. ("I don't care if I'd save 10 points by raising my IQ by 1 level. My character isn't that smart.")

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

This is not really true. GURPS actually demands a certain amount of optimization in juggling attributes, secondary characteristics, talents, and skills, so you get the maximum amount of skill for your character points. Dungeon Fantasy templates mostly do this for you, but there are edge cases where they fail, and they're more likely to fail when you start throwing in various lenses.

I disagree as given my constant refinement of the D&D to GURPS sheet over the years. One must remember Dungeon Fantasy ia more cinematic than normal GURPS.

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

Then there are deeper levels of optimization that most GMs will want to veto. Stuff getting your skill level in a spell really high so you can abuse casting it (or at least maintaining it) for free).

Task, distance, and speed modifiers help deal with this kind of nonsense. Also for every spell on the wizard is at -1 to skill on all other spells then want to cast.

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

Or loading up your advantages with many limitations so your 100 point ability only costs 20 points. Or abusing Gadgeteer.

Depends on which limitations as some of them expressly state they can only used with a limited subset of advantages.

Gadgeteer expressly states "Before beginning, the player must describe the proposed gadget to the GM in a logical manner, and offer an explanation of how it is supposed to work. (...) The GM is free to accept or reject the design, depending on its feasibility." Basic Set p 475

I tend to treat Gadgeteer items like commas - "when in out leave it out".

[lordabdul]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

...many people don't care about optimizing points. ("I don't care if I'd save 10 points by raising my IQ by 1 level. My character isn't that smart.")

That's how my players mostly make their characters, yeah. Which is really nice IMHO.

As for the OP, frankly, there are three ways for me to pitch a new game to my players, depending on the group:

1) They just enjoy trying new things. No more explication is needed, we play a one-shot of the new game next time we have a missing player, or next time we reach a good conclusion to an arc of our ongoing campaign.

2) For systems, purely, maybe they have some gripes with the current system. I would then pitch a system I consider as "better", and which would fix those gripes they have.

3) There's a cool setting or game premise we want to try, and I generally can't be bothered to adapt it to anything else than the system it comes with. If it's a setting/premise that doesn't exist yet (like, say, playing some Alien one-shot before the Alien RPG came out), then I tell them that I think this or that system would be easiest for me to homebrew it (generally GURPS but not always). They just go along.

Points (1) and (3) rely on having open minded players who trust the GM and recognize that GMs have a whole bunch of prep work each session. On the other hand, ***hole players who insist only on playing what they know or like, regardless of what the GM feels or say, do exist, sadly. I would say: find other players. Really.

For (2), in my experience, it's not uncommon for players to have gripes about a system but still be reluctant to replace it with something else. The devil you know, and all that... playing a one-shot is a good way to make them try that new system. See previous paragraph if they are reluctant to even do that. Once you've played the one-shot, you'll see if they have more or less gripes with the new system!

For GURPS and D&D specifically, my players have mentioned a few times that they:

- Like being able to mechanically model whatever character idea they have, whereas systems like D&D don't let you do that easily or at all. The point buy system makes it OK to try crazy things without feeling like you're "cheating" compared to other characters. The advantage/disadvantage system is a good incentive to come up with a more nuanced character (although some players have a tendency to buy all kinds of ridiculous stuff just to get more points).

- The comprehensive library of GURPS books gives access to a whole bunch of stats for gear, vehicle, and so on. D&D may have tons of books on fantasy equipment, but for running other time periods and genres, GURPS has a lot more support.

- Combat feels more dynamic with more options and the attack/defense rolls, as opposed to a rather impersonal roll against a target number. My players feel a bit helpless when NPCs hit them in D&D. Conversely, when they hit NPCs, they feel like they're beating an imaginary number, instead of actually beating the NPC itself. Interestingly, combat that involves attack/defense rolls is also what, I think, made RuneQuest a rather popular alternative to D&D back in the early 80s.

- Me and some of my players dislike the D&D power progression curve. We're more into character progression as done with BRP or GURPS. In D&D, PCs who were once normal people later become basically demi-gods.

[Black Leviathan]

Simple pitch:

Three reasons we should play:

1. Rules are actually very simple. Almost all tests are 3d6 under ability modified by GM, mechanics are very consistent and easy to see how effective attacks, skills and abilities are.

2. Rules closer to simulation than game. Damage based on strength rather than weapon. Hit points based on your muscle-mass rather than your level of experience. Falls and diseases are dangerous, exhaustion and hunger are serious issues. Things more often play out as you'd expect them to giving you more ability to predict what your character can do. Also an opportunity for a play-style with more grit and seriousness than D20.

3. Better framework for creation. More flexibility in what kinds of characters the mechanics can support and more control over how your character grows and develops. Better framework for different kinds of adventures in different worlds.

And on the third point, don't run Dungeon Fantasy as their first game. If I was a D&D player I would be hyper-not-enthused about learning a big rule system for a D&D clone. Run a short adventure designed to be non-frustrating that leans into the strengths of GURPS. I'd highly recommend something that D20 struggles with like a multi-genre setting, something that flexes GURP's wide range of tools and seamless world-to-world mechanics.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

This is not really true. GURPS actually demands a certain amount of optimization in juggling attributes, secondary characteristics, talents, and skills, so you get the maximum amount of skill for your character points. Dungeon Fantasy templates mostly do this for you, but there are edge cases where they fail, and they're more likely to fail when you start throwing in various lenses.

For the most part, if you keep in mind "someone with a lot of mental/physical skills should have a high IQ/DX" and "someone with several related skills will benefit from a relevant talent" and follow some basic intuitition, you will usually make a character that isn't crippled by inefficiency, even if it could be made somewhat more efficient with some mathematical analysis.

I have played very little D&D (and only 3.x), but I believe what punishes "imperfect" builds isn't so much the mechanics, but the role expectations that have arisen within some of the player base. Fighters draw aggro and tank damage. Anything that doesn't further that with maximum efficiency is a wasted trait pick. Again, based on my own limited experience.

[Opellulo]

I'm currently running a campaign with a lot of Pathfinder (which still sit under the d20 umbrella) veterans and all I did to allure them was simply to say:

"You know, you can do something else OTHER THAN combat".

I know it's a Pathfinder 1ed quirk but the game it's basically a tactical combat simulator with a short list of skills that are in charge of the real roleplay. It's a really disjointed experience since every aspect has a different mechanic: feats, magic, skills, levels, archetypes everything works in his own scale.

All these hard boundaries push to be broken so min-maxing became part of the experience,and this ends in that being a veteran is not having funny stories to share with friends but simply being able to create broken templates in Pathbuilder (and then feeling like a fool once you discover the "Mongoose Circling" Feat).

In my current Witcher adventure I'm putting a lot of emphasis on conversation and mood and the results so far are quite satisfying to the point that everybody opted in to continue the campaign. I still have fight against some rooted habits (a player asked me how to become a Paladin... That don't even exist in this setting) but will see how all this will evolve in the next sessions.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Black Leviathan

Simple pitch:
(snip)

3. Better framework for creation. More flexibility in what kinds of characters the mechanics can support and more control over how your character grows and develops. Better framework for different kinds of adventures in different worlds.

And on the third point, don't run Dungeon Fantasy as their first game. If I was a D&D player I would be hyper-not-enthused about learning a big rule system for a D&D clone. Run a short adventure designed to be non-frustrating that leans into the strengths of GURPS. I'd highly recommend something that D20 struggles with like a multi-genre setting, something that flexes GURP's wide range of tools and seamless world-to-world mechanics.

Perhaps Caravan to Ein Arris or if that still too close look at the Adventures Category on the GURPSwiki. Hopefully something there might help.

GURPS makes running City Beyond the Gate a lot easier and you have a fish out of water situation with the party. Though you could have it on Merlin-1 and make things really interesting.

Originally Posted by Opellulo

I'm currently running a campaign with a lot of Pathfinder (which still sit under the d20 umbrella) veterans and all I did to allure them was simply to say:

"You know, you can do something else OTHER THAN combat".

I know it's a Pathfinder 1ed quirk but the game it's basically a tactical combat simulator with a short list of skills that are in charge of the real roleplay.

Not surprising as it took tips from D&D 3.5 which despite many improvement basically wore its Chainmail war-game origins on its sleeve.

Perhaps that was the real plan with D&D4e - to make combat such a slog that no one would want to do it. :-).

Some fo the early adventures are available and there are reasonable number of free ones or seeds to play with.