Reward Costs

[tbug]

I'm a little unclear as to how we're supposed to deal with the point costs of rewards. For example, attunements or new rites are available as gifts from a Superior to a PC, but the rules seem to indicate that the PCs still have to pay points for them. Am I misinterpreting?

Can a PC just buy a new rite or attunement without being given it by his/her Superior? If that's sometimes possible then it explains things.

[alexondria]

I always do things like this on a sliding scale of how intelligent the characters have been of late. As long as they haven't done anything that would have the superior extreamly upset w/ them then they can by attunements that their superior offers w/ points, as for rites I only give them out when I feel like it but if I was going to let them be bought w/ points I would do that in the same way.

As for things that the characters are given in play by various people- as far as I can tell the core rules want the players to pay for those, but I tend to ignore that rule.

[William]

The points are what the player needs to earn; the Superior is how you get it.

A PC in my game wants Laurence's Hunt attunement. She has earned the character points. She pays them, and I set up a conversation with her and her Archangel near her Heart. He reviews her recent performance, notes that she's done well (i.e., she earned experience points), and it looks like this Attunement would help her do her job. He touches her Heart and she has the Attunement.

Forces, attributes, and new Songs and skills are sometimes granted by Superiors but can also be picked up through hard work and personal improvement by Servitors. Reliquaries are usually purchased, though they may be issued; either method costs the usual points to bind them properly.

[tbug]

Originally Posted by alexondria

As for things that the characters are given in play by various people- as far as I can tell the core rules want the players to pay for those, but I tend to ignore that rule.

This is where I'm headed, too. Thanks.

[tbug]

Originally Posted by William

Forces, attributes, and new Songs and skills are sometimes granted by Superiors but can also be picked up through hard work and personal improvement by Servitors. Reliquaries are usually purchased, though they may be issued; either method costs the usual points to bind them properly.

So Throikiel's player really wants another Corporeal Force and is saving up for it, with seven points set aside. David decides that Throikiel really needs the Cold Touch attunement, both as a reward for recent work and because of an upcoming assignment. David gives Throikiel the attunement.

Does Throikiel still have the seven points set aside for that Corporeal Force? Should I not have David give the attunement, even though it fits the story? How do I deal with this?

[William]

Originally Posted by tbug

So Throikiel's player really wants another Corporeal Force and is saving up for it, with seven points set aside. David decides that Throikiel really needs the Cold Touch attunement, both as a reward for recent work and because of an upcoming assignment. David gives Throikiel the attunement.

Does Throikiel still have the seven points set aside for that Corporeal Force? Should I not have David give the attunement, even though it fits the story? How do I deal with this?

Points are spent on traits the player requests for the character. They represent, say, time spent in self-improvement, accumulated merits in the Superior's estimation, and so forth. If the Superior offers additional boons beyond this request, this is roughly equivalent to the GM offering the character additional experience points: the player should have earned this much in experience in play. Since he earned it, the player should have the opportunity to accept the Superior's boon, to suggest an alternate expenditure for a similar amount of points, or to decline and accumulate the points for later. If the player does not accept the boon outright, a deduction of some size may be justifiable as he the character is taking the bold step of suggesting that perhaps the Superior doesn't know what's best.

In GURPS IN, Throikiel would need 20 character points for Cold Touch. Suppose he had it, and were saving up for some other attunement. I would offer the character Cold Touch at a thematically appropriate moment, but spending 20 of the player's points without his permission would be wrong. The player might suggest that some time with a Songmaster and high skill with the Song of Corporeal Charm would work better. I could just hand him Cold Touch, without spending any of his unspent XP, as long as the player didn't object (he might have a reason for not wanting the attunement), but this increases the value of the character by 20 points; if he still has those unspent points, then for some reason David didn't regard this gift as counting against what he felt the character was properly owed. This would be unfair to any other players in the game.

Unless I did the same for them, and then I've basically just upped the baseline point level for the game by 20 points. Fair all around, in the sense that everybody got a free lunch.

[tbug]

Thanks for the dialogue. I'm not convinced that I'm always going to follow the core rules, but I want to make sure that at least I understand them before I go my own way.

Originally Posted by William

Points are spent on traits the player requests for the character. They represent, say, time spent in self-improvement, accumulated merits in the Superior's estimation, and so forth.

I'm with you so far.

Originally Posted by William

If the Superior offers additional boons beyond this request, this is roughly equivalent to the GM offering the character additional experience points: the player should have earned this much in experience in play.

I agree with the wording that it's "roughly equivalent", since it would otherwise cost those experience points.

Originally Posted by William

Since he earned it, the player should have the opportunity to accept the Superior's boon, to suggest an alternate expenditure for a similar amount of points, or to decline and accumulate the points for later.

This is where I start to feel uneasy with what you're saying. Let's imagine the situation.

Throikiel has just done some big job and has been spectacularly successful. The Archangel David shows up and says "Well done, good and faithful servant. In gratitude for your work, I bestow upon you the Cold Touch distinction."

Throikiel responds, "Thanks but no Thanks, Big D. Can I have an extra Corporeal Force instead?"

Not only does it strike me unwise to turn down the Archangel David's gift, but it also weakens the GM's plotting. The Cold Touch distinction might be necessary for an upcoming storyline.

Originally Posted by William

If the player does not accept the boon outright, a deduction of some size may be justifiable as he the character is taking the bold step of suggesting that perhaps the Superior doesn't know what's best.

So even though another Force costs ten points (the same as a distinction), you're suggesting that David might give him half the price (for example) of a Force instead of the full price of the distinction?

Originally Posted by William

In GURPS IN, Throikiel would need 20 character points for Cold Touch. Suppose he had it, and were saving up for some other attunement. I would offer the character Cold Touch at a thematically appropriate moment, but spending 20 of the player's points without his permission would be wrong.

I agree completely. That's what going me going on this topic in the first place.

Originally Posted by William

The player might suggest that some time with a Songmaster and high skill with the Song of Corporeal Charm would work better. I could just hand him Cold Touch, without spending any of his unspent XP, as long as the player didn't object (he might have a reason for not wanting the attunement),

I know that the PCs are favoured servitors, but I just can't picture David reacting well to a character who objected to receiving an attunement. He'd better have a really good reason and be able to convince David of the fact.

Originally Posted by William

but this increases the value of the character by 20 points; if he still has those unspent points, then for some reason David didn't regard this gift as counting against what he felt the character was properly owed. This would be unfair to any other players in the game.

This might be more of a GURPS issue than a core rules one. Characters in the main game aren't really balanced against each other anyway, particularly when you have angels and Soldiers and Relievers all playing in the same party. I wouldn't have a problem with giving one character a plot-related attunement and ignoring point-counts. Presumably if all the PCs were involved in the latest big success then they'll all get rewards, but they'll be appopriate to the story rather than just whatever is point-balanced.

Regardless, thank-you for helping me understand the rules. I think that as long as I'm playing by the IN rules instead of GURPS I'm going to worry about the role-playing and the story more than the point-balance and fairness between players. I dislike the idea of spending the players' points on their behalf, and I dislike the idea of forcing them to stand up to their Superiors if they want to have any say in how their characters develop, and I dislike the idea of never having the Superiors offer appropriate rewards. I guess this leaves me with an unbalanced game, so I suppose I'm okay with that.

[alexondria]

no offence to game designers, but In Nomine isn't realy point balanced anyway. It's more set up for roleplaying which is why I run it. I've had instances where to reward players I've given one something that was worth 20 points and another player something that was worth 5 points and it worked out perfectly fine. The iteams in question fit the character and the giver- they also fit what the character would like to have. Also how useful songs attunements and artifacts are is highly based on the story you are telling in In Nomine- for example I gave one of my players the Nash Rambler- this is a 20 point artifact. The character loves his car- the character drives the car everywhere. Their has only actualy been one incident where any of the special properties ever came up- and that was because I decided it would be fun to have someone plant a car bomb on his car.

[RadLilim]

Originally Posted by tbug

I dislike the idea of spending the players' points on their behalf, and I dislike the idea of forcing them to stand up to their Superiors if they want to have any say in how their characters develop, and I dislike the idea of never having the Superiors offer appropriate rewards.

The way I handle it is that since I know what the player wants to spend his or her XP on, that's what I have the Superior give out. I will ask the player what they want, we discuss it a bit and then run the scene. If I think something else might be better for the character at that point, I will mention it to them. If they still don't want it, I'm not going to force them to change their character in a way they don't want to (unless its from an intervention, then it's out of their hands). If they don't want the item/reward I think they should have and it is needed for a future plot, I will send along an NPC or loan them an artifact for that time. Then they might see how useful it is and pick it up next time.

Another way to get a new Force is to slowly raise the cooresponding stats and when you get the the next multipul of 4, they can raise the Force. It's slower, but that represents working hard on your body/mind/soul instead of the magic of a Superior just making them better.

[tbug]

Originally Posted by RadLilim

The way I handle it is that since I know what the player wants to spend his or her XP on, that's what I have the Superior give out. I will ask the player what they want, we discuss it a bit and then run the scene. If I think something else might be better for the character at that point, I will mention it to them. If they still don't want it, I'm not going to force them to change their character in a way they don't want to (unless its from an intervention, then it's out of their hands). If they don't want the item/reward I think they should have and it is needed for a future plot, I will send along an NPC or loan them an artifact for that time. Then they might see how useful it is and pick it up next time.

If that works for you and your players then that's a really great way to handle it. I think that for us it would stretch verisimilitude a bit if the Superiors always offered whatever it was that the Servitors wanted anyway. Thanks, though.

Originally Posted by RadLilim

Another way to get a new Force is to slowly raise the cooresponding stats and when you get the the next multipul of 4, they can raise the Force. It's slower, but that represents working hard on your body/mind/soul instead of the magic of a Superior just making them better.

I know. It was just an example of what the player might be saving up to buy. :)