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Old 08-17-2019, 03:29 PM   #1
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default The Odd Case of Modifying ST-Based Damage [Powers]

So, let us say that I am making a ST 22 vampire with armor piercing attacks. Using the rules for modifying ST-based damage, I can take Armor Divisor (10) for +200%, which would cost +20 CP, and give its natural attack, Sharp Teeth, Armor Divisor (10) for +200%, which would cost +2 CP. For +22 CP, I can have a ST 22 vampire who punches for 2d-1 (10) crushing damage and bites for 2d-1 (10) cutting damage.

Conversely, I can purchase Cutting Attack (1 point; Armor Divisor (10), +200%; Melee Attack, Reach C, No Parry, ST-based damage, +65%; No Signature, +20%; Variable, +5%) [7] and Crushing Attack (1 point; Armor Divisor (10), +200%; Melee Attack, Reach C-1, Dual Weapon, ST-based damage, +90%; No Signature, +20%; Variable, +5%) [6]. For 13 CP, I end up with the option of dealing 2d+1 cutting damage with one attack and 2d+1 (10) crushing damage with two attacks per turn, and I can parry two attacks per turn without risking damage. As a special effect, I can make it appear that the cutting attack is a bite and the crushing attacks are punches (Reach C) or Kicks (Reach 1) since they have No Signature.

So, why should I modify ST-based damage rather than purchasing the two Innate Attacks? If I take the later option, I save 9 CP and gain the ability to make two parties per turn without harming myself. It just does not seem like a good idea to use the modify ST-based damage rules.
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Old 08-17-2019, 07:42 PM   #2
nudj
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: The Odd Case of Modifying ST-Based Damage [Powers]

Power Ups:Enhancements clarifies that damage modifiers (like armour piercing) for ST-based innate attacks must ALSO be applied to basic thrust damage from Strength (just like in your first example). So you are 20 cp off on the second example.
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Old 08-17-2019, 09:20 PM   #3
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: The Odd Case of Modifying ST-Based Damage [Powers]

How is it phrased? Is it that characters with modified ST-based damage and natural attacks (and/or ST-based Melee Attacks) must have the same modifiers on their natural attacks (and/or ST-based Melee Attacks) as they do on their ST-based damage? Or is that characters with natural attacks (and/or ST-based Melee Attacks) and modified ST-based damage must have the same modifiers on their modified ST-based damage as their natural attacks (and/or ST-based Melee Attacks)?

In the former case, it makes sense, as it would be consistent with the rules from Powers. In the latter case, it does not make sense because it would contradict the rules from Powers and there has not been an associated errata to correct it. The order of phrasing matters.

Last edited by AlexanderHowl; 08-17-2019 at 09:28 PM.
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Old 08-17-2019, 09:35 PM   #4
awesomenessofme1
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Default Re: The Odd Case of Modifying ST-Based Damage [Powers]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
How is it phrased? Is it that characters with modified ST-based damage and natural attacks (and/or ST-based Melee Attacks) must have the same modifiers on their natural attacks (and/or ST-based Melee Attacks) as they do on their ST-based damage? Or is that characters with natural attacks (and/or ST-based Melee Attacks) and modified ST-based damage must have the same modifiers on their modified ST-based damage as their natural attacks (and/or ST-based Melee Attacks)?

In the former case, it makes sense, as it would be consistent with the rules from Powers. In the latter case, it does not make sense because it would contradict the rules from Powers and there has not been an associated errata to correct it. The order of phrasing matters.
The former, if I'm reading right. Here's the exact quote:

"If you have Claws, Strikers, or Teeth and modifiers on muscle-powered damage, you must buy your body weaponry with exactly the same modifiers.
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Old 08-17-2019, 10:18 PM   #5
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: The Odd Case of Modifying ST-Based Damage [Powers]

Quote:
Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1 View Post
The former, if I'm reading right. Here's the exact quote:

"If you have Claws, Strikers, or Teeth and modifiers on muscle-powered damage, you must buy your body weaponry with exactly the same modifiers.
So, you only have to modify natural weapons and/or Melee Attacks with ST-based damage if you have modifiers on ST-based damage? Well, that is consistent with Powers then, which makes sense.
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Old 08-18-2019, 08:28 AM   #6
Sorenant
 
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Join Date: Jan 2015
Default Re: The Odd Case of Modifying ST-Based Damage [Powers]

As nudj said, PU4 is clear that any Innate Attack with ST-Based and "enhancements that affects the attack's ability to damage things or the effects of its damage" requires the use of Modifying ST-Based Damage.
The example given in the book is a character with thr 2d-1 and Impaling Attack (AD(2), +50%; No Blunt Trauma, -20%; No Signature, +20%; ST-Based, +100%) [20]. 2d-1 Crushing Attack would cost 9 points, and +50% for AD would raise it by 5, so that character need to pay 20+5 points for the ability.

Pyramid #3-65 has Natural Weapon advantage that is simpler to use. For your vampire's punches, he'd buy Natural Weapon (Crushing, +5; Accessibility, breaking the weapon cripples the hand, -20%; AD(10), +200%) [14].
It's cheaper than Modifying ST-Based Damage but given you're already paying for ST so I don't feel it's underpriced.
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Old 08-18-2019, 09:56 AM   #7
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: The Odd Case of Modifying ST-Based Damage [Powers]

I'm actually not sure why you should buy the modifiers on Claws/Strikers/Teeth, those simply buy HAVING a pseudo innate-attack.

Since you get charged as if buying modifiers on an Innate Attack anyway, it seems like getting doubled-charged.
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