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Old 05-10-2018, 06:49 AM   #11
Brandy
 
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Default Re: How to give fatigue points more meaning?

I'll 2nd taking a look at The Last Gasp. I've just started a game using it and I really like it.
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Old 05-10-2018, 07:48 AM   #12
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Default Re: How to give fatigue points more meaning?

I have never had many issues with FP. Since FP is very difficult to recover in a realistic battle (battles last hours, days, or weeks in real life, so recovering FP should be quite difficult), it becomes an important measure of the capacity of a fighter to survive combat. If you are giving characters an hour of peaceful rest between fights, you are probably just pacing the combat incorrectly.

For example, let us say that the party is involved in a border skermish between two nations. The enemy sends parties of five mounted archers every five minutes to harass the position of the characters for thirty seconds before retreating. If the characters decide to rest, they weaken the defenses of their position, as their comrades who become active in response to the threat get progressively more tired and become the targets of the mounted archers. At best, the characters can alternate, recovering some of their FP, as they probably lose 2 FP every time they are up.
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Old 05-10-2018, 09:47 AM   #13
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Default Re: How to give fatigue points more meaning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Basic Lift is a ST-based quantity. If anything, reduction of BL seems even more antithetical to how these things are approached than the more linear derived numbers.
The trouble is, if we use this, it makes the ST reduction almost toothless. It would affect... basically grappling rolls, I guess?

Also, having ST reductions not affect things like HP makes sense because generally, reduced ST isn't taking away your actual muscle tissue, just making it work less effectively - the actual mass, which is what HP generally represents, is still there. But Basic Lift is directly affected by how well your muscles are performing. Having Basic Lift reduced by low FP also checks out from a verisimilitude standpoint - one of the effects frequently noted of being very tired is that everything seems heavier.
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Old 05-10-2018, 10:57 AM   #14
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Default Re: How to give fatigue points more meaning?

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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
Personally, I'd say "easily remedied with rest" is the main issue. Remember, each FP requires 10 minutes of rest to recover. In an action-packed game, 10 minutes is a long time, particularly when it's 10 minutes of no walking around. Put some time pressure on the PCs, and you'll probably find that those lost FP feel a lot more precious. Particularly since, once you're down to below 1/3rd FP, your Move, Dodge, and ST are all halved. The halved ST in particular is kind of a double-whammy, since it means you're very likely much more encumbered than you were before, further reducing your Move, and heavy encumbrance will also mean any fight that goes on for very long will also drain even more FP from you.
Our Gurps never has exertion after exertion. We might have a short moment of combat (less than 10 turns easily), followed by nothing really. There is always an easy hour in there where our characters could "rest" and regain that 6 fatigue we might have spent during the fight (which we never spend that much). We usually end our sessions with us all going to sleep for the night, unless someone has something specific they want to do that night, in which case they usually just sleep in longer than normal and have no fatigue to start the next session. We always travel with a vehicle, so there's no fatigue to be gained there. We're usually set in a town of some sort, so there's no starvation to come into play.

That Last Grasp seems the right move for us. I'll have to look at it closer and see if I can convince our GM to apply it.

Thanks for that suggestion! I'm seeing more and more suggestions for my Gurps complaints coming from these Pyramids. Makes me feel like Gurps 5th edition is necessary...but I know where that stands. :(
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Old 05-10-2018, 11:26 AM   #15
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Default Re: How to give fatigue points more meaning?

I think that it is a matter of pacing rather than a weakness in the rules. During a mission, I feel that characters should never get a chance to rest and the pacing of my games usually reflects that philosophy. Because of that, players in my games are very careful with FP expenditures during missions because they will likely not have an opportunity to recover the majority of their lost FP until after the mission.
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Old 05-10-2018, 12:02 PM   #16
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Default Re: How to give fatigue points more meaning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
The trouble is, if we use this, it makes the ST reduction almost toothless. It would affect... basically grappling rolls, I guess?

Also, having ST reductions not affect things like HP makes sense because generally, reduced ST isn't taking away your actual muscle tissue, just making it work less effectively - the actual mass, which is what HP generally represents, is still there. But Basic Lift is directly affected by how well your muscles are performing. Having Basic Lift reduced by low FP also checks out from a verisimilitude standpoint - one of the effects frequently noted of being very tired is that everything seems heavier.
Grappling, ST-based skill rolls, stuck pick removal etc. It's nasty enough to not be negligible but niche enough to not be crippling. By comparison, having ST-halving result in recalculation of BL basically triple-dips you: you get halved move from FP, you get huge mobility penalties on top of it because now you're probably in X-Heavy or Heavy encumbrance if you carried almost anything serious, and said encumbrance will mean that your FP losses jumped up 2×-4× which in turn means you'll be hit by Will rolls to stay conscious in significantly less than 50% of the time it took to pass the first 2/3 of the downward spiral.
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Old 05-10-2018, 01:01 PM   #17
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Default Re: How to give fatigue points more meaning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Grappling, ST-based skill rolls, stuck pick removal etc. It's nasty enough to not be negligible but niche enough to not be crippling. By comparison, having ST-halving result in recalculation of BL basically triple-dips you: you get halved move from FP, you get huge mobility penalties on top of it because now you're probably in X-Heavy or Heavy encumbrance if you carried almost anything serious, and said encumbrance will mean that your FP losses jumped up 2×-4× which in turn means you'll be hit by Will rolls to stay conscious in significantly less than 50% of the time it took to pass the first 2/3 of the downward spiral.
Or you could of course drop something rather forcing yourself to fight a 10 round combat at heavy+ encumbrance and risking will rolls for dropping below 0 once the fight ends.

TBH honest this is all one of the reasons I like last gasp, it might give more wider ranging penalties, but it does so more gradually. You won't halve your ST until you used 5/5ths of your FP.

And more realistically won't be all good down to 1/3FP and then 1 more FP and bam halve ST and Mv etc, etc.
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Old 05-10-2018, 01:32 PM   #18
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Default Re: How to give fatigue points more meaning?

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Do you think you are as able to carry around and move as easily with heavy loads as well when you are knackered as you can when you are as fresh as a daisy? Especially as carrying and moving such loads may well be the thing that knackers you!
Below is copied from my GM notes, but is simply a paraphrasing from Basic pg 426:

< 1/3FP: 1/2 Move, Dodge, ST (not damage or HP)

This says nothing about BL being ignored, so I've never ignored it for ST loss from FP accumulation.

Quote:
I don't know if you've ever done weights, but do you reckon you can maintain your reps while getting progressively more and more exhausted?
I wouldn't call that FP loss*. I doubt just doing 100+ different 10lb curls with one arm (the point at which it becomes difficult to continue using that arm) causes me to lose 2/3 (or all) of my FP... considering I then do 100+ curls with the other arm...

.. and within a few minutes can go back to doing all my normal stuff with minimal arm tiredness.


* This level of resolution might be best served by Last Gasp or something similar.

Quote:
Do you think Boxers find it as easy to hit as hard when they're exhausted in the 10th round compared to when they come out fresh in the 1st?
Do you reckon repeated blows to the head and body might have an effect here?

(Granted, HP loss also avoids the death spiral stat penalyzing, despite it being 'realistic')

Last edited by evileeyore; 05-10-2018 at 01:37 PM.
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Old 05-10-2018, 01:57 PM   #19
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Default Re: How to give fatigue points more meaning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Below is copied from my GM notes, but is simply a paraphrasing from Basic pg 426:

< 1/3FP: 1/2 Move, Dodge, ST (not damage or HP)

This says nothing about BL being ignored, so I've never ignored it for ST loss from FP accumulation.
Well TBF I was responding to the argument that it should be ignored. Also as I said in my post it's RAW that you don't apply it to BL.


Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
I wouldn't call that FP loss*. I doubt just doing 100+ different 10lb curls with one arm (the point at which it becomes difficult to continue using that arm) causes me to lose 2/3 of my FP... considering I then do 100+ curls with the other arm...

.. and within a few minutes can go back to doing all my normal stuff with minimal arm tiredness.
Well I wasn't exactly trying to come up with rep-to-Fp ratio. Just making the point that as you continue to do reps you will eventually reach a point where those reps become harder and possibly reach a point where you can no longer do them (without a recovery period).

I.e. that 100th rep is harder than the 1st one, but it's not like your muscles have shrunk or as a person you have become in abstract weaker in general. it's just your ability to apply your strength in that way has temporarily reduced.

Interesting point though, 100+ rps with 10lbs is one thing, how well can you sustain your reps with say 30lbs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
* This level of resolution might be best served by Last Gasp or something similar.
heh, I quite agree! :-)


Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Do you reckon repeated blows to the head and body might have an effect here?.
I do, but you can punch yourself out as well, rope-a-dope is a thing after all!

Even just training hard fatigues you right, and you feel the effects of that fatigue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
(Granted, HP loss also avoids the death spiral stat penalyzing, despite it being 'realistic')
Well it depends on the rules you use and the time period, detailed injury rules in Martial Arts brings in delayed DX pens to wounds.

However a difference here is you tend not to lose FP in the same way as you do HP, (barring FP sapping attacks).

FP spending tends* to be your own choice and in increments of 1 during combat or in a predictable chunk at the end if you use the the RAW in Campaigns. HP loss tends to be much more random and out of your hands.

But as I said earlier I do get the death spiral / playability argument.

EDIT: but on the death spiral argument. I do quite like systems that with impairment encourage play away from "I'm fine until I'm dead" which risks combat being gamed down getting each other to that final blow that takes you from fine to dead (GURPS already does this in a few different ways)



*Losing AP along with HP in Last gasp is involuntary of course, and I think you can lose FP with bad rolls in some skills IIRC?
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Last edited by Tomsdad; 05-11-2018 at 01:03 AM.
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Old 05-10-2018, 01:59 PM   #20
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Default Re: How to give fatigue points more meaning?

Campaigns says that it does not effect ST-based qualities, which would implicitly include BL.
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