[Basic] Skill of the week: Knot-Tying

[chandley]

Knot-Tying is also useful for stage magicians. Especially since it is possible to create knots that are _very_ hard to undo... unless you know the trick. And then you can undo them quite quickly indeed.

I have included it in Stage Magician! for a character I play in a Pulp heroes game. It is useful for tying people up of course, but it is also (as mentioned) a hidden combat skill inside that bang skill: after a parry or grapple, use a QC of Knot-Tying vs DX (or grapple skill I believe) to bind people up like a bola. Once they are tied up, well... you can be as nice or mean as you like.

Pairs well with the Lasso, Bola, and/or Flail skills, to never be without a weapon if you have a rope (and some rocks for the latter two skills), and a weapon that can pass unnoticed no less. Targeted Attack (Neck) is useful here. A Lariat used with enough skill is dangerous to parry, can choke if you hit the neck, and provides plenty of spare rope to use Knot-Tying with to continue to tie up your victim.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Umm, there's this thing called floating skill to a different attribute, and it's used to resolve exactly that sort of difference between the physical and the mental, among other things.

That doesn't address it at all. Floating the skill still implies that the skill covers all the aspects. Climbing has very physical and totally non-technological aspects close to its core, but those are still a skill that you can put a lot of points in. A non-tech-using climber doesn't imply a DX monster with only a few points in climbing.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Plus, entities with IQ<6 cannot use complex technological tools; use a similar ruling for simpler tools (because chimps apparently can tie knots, but I haven't heard of raccoons doing the same).

Not happy with the idea that the skill means something very different depending on your IQ...especially when there's no reason for the patterns not to be broken. A sapient squirrel with disturbingly high levels of climbing that doesn't know or care about climbing gear any more than its ordinary counterparts is a perfectly reasonable GURPS character.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Familiarity Penalty.

A familiarity penalty is supposed to cover someone that someone who can scale a fitted stone wall naked, but has never done anything remotely notable with cord?

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Knot-Tying is the DX/Easy skill of being good at trying knots. It defaults to DX-4, Climbing-4 or Seamanship-4; no skills default to Knot-Tying. It seems awfully specialised as a standalone skill, but I suspect the reason it exists is to give a skill for Escape to have a contest against when someone is tied up; in practice that's often going to be one of the defaults. Failing usually means that the prisoner will get free eventually. Modifiers include High Manual Dexterity and Ham-Fisted, and modifiers for extra time and quality of materials will often make sense. The skill appeared at GURPS 4e.

Knot-Tying appears on a fair number of templates as an option, but the nearest thing to it being a major skill is the "Hostile Extraction" (i.e., kidnapping) skill-set in Action 4: Specialists. That book also prescribes it for sailors, climbers, and mountaineers. DF Scouts with the Bounty Hunter background have good use for it, as have Artificers, and Priests and Holy Warriors of Love. DF2 has quick rules for tying up prisoners of any size, and DF15 uses it for traps and escaping them. Low-Tech has knots to replace locks, and more rules for escaping bonds. Martial Arts uses this skill for trying people up under combat conditions after entangling them, or with the Binding technique, while they're still resisting. Technical Grappling extends Knot-Typing and Binding to use the Control Points mechanic, and Yrth Fighting Styles has the Ars Clemens style, which would make good use of that. PU3 and PU7 have example Talents and Wildcard skills that include Knot-Tying. Powers applies the skill to Binding powers, Thaumatology has a style of Ritual Magic based on knots, and Ultra-Tech smart-rope gives a skill bonus.

What other professions and skills involve a lot of tying? Surgery, Gardening and Carpentry/TL0-3 seem like candidates.

Being a world-conqueror. At least if the knot is at Gordium.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

That doesn't address it at all. Floating the skill still implies that the skill covers all the aspects. Climbing has very physical and totally non-technological aspects close to its core, but those are still a skill that you can put a lot of points in. A non-tech-using climber doesn't imply a DX monster with only a few points in climbing.

Not happy with the idea that the skill means something very different depending on your IQ...especially when there's no reason for the patterns not to be broken. A sapient squirrel with disturbingly high levels of climbing that doesn't know or care about climbing gear any more than its ordinary counterparts is a perfectly reasonable GURPS character.

A familiarity penalty is supposed to cover someone that someone who can scale a fitted stone wall naked, but has never done anything remotely notable with cord?

Character capabilities differing drastically depending on IQ is a thing, including the fact that having IQ<6 disqualifies you from taking Low TL.

As for Familiarity - yes it is. Notice that, say, Computer Programming is a single skill. And whenever I pointed out that a person taught to code in C# will have problems with ASM (heck, memory management differences between C# and C are already a big problem that can make things not work) and has a very low chance of being able to even read a programme in Глагол. And even worse in a language made by a genuinely alien civilisation. At least until taught all the required differences and principles that aren't self-evident. But for all those things are subsumed into Familiarities.

Not being taught how to use a rope as a Familiarity Penalty? Sure. It's just like Forward Observer including or not including various sets of equipment depending on whether said equipment is appropriate for the TL and army which taught the skill. Or, say, Camouflage, which isn't a /TL skill either.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

As for Familiarity - yes it is. Notice that, say, Computer Programming is a single skill. And whenever I pointed out that a person taught to code in C# will have problems with ASM (heck, memory management differences between C# and C are already a big problem that can make things not work) and has a very low chance of being able to even read a programme in Глагол. And even worse in a language made by a genuinely alien civilisation. At least until taught all the required differences and principles that aren't self-evident. But for all those things are subsumed into Familiarities.

I really can't see that as anything more than not wanting to delve into the innards of a skill that is cryptic even at the surface level to most players.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by (E)

I can only remember it coming up in one game that I ran. Like most of the people who have posted I am of the opinion that the skill is a bit light on content. I personally broadened the skill to cover ropework from plating a whip to some types of weaving and basket weaving. The one PC who has it made straw hats in his spare time.

Yeah, it's too specialized for a decent skill if it doesn't do anything but let you tie knots. If it includes maintaining and repairing rope and nets, which frankly is probably the bigger part of the "marlinspike seamanship" training I suspect originated the concept, it's much more plausible. If you include lifting and lashing things together (which doesn't seem to have a good craft name, but got labeled "pioneering" in Girl Scouts, and which doesn't seem to have a better skill to belong to - I guess it would fall under the Mechanic equivalent of Combat Engineering if there was one) then it becomes a genuinely useful adventuring skill.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Yeah, it's too specialized for a decent skill if it doesn't do anything but let you tie knots. If it includes maintaining and repairing rope and nets, which frankly is probably the bigger part of the "marlinspike seamanship" training I suspect originated the concept, it's much more plausible. If you include lifting and lashing things together (which doesn't seem to have a good craft name, but got labeled "pioneering" in Girl Scouts, and which doesn't seem to have a better skill to belong to - I guess it would fall under the Mechanic equivalent of Combat Engineering if there was one) then it becomes a genuinely useful adventuring skill.

Then why not call it "Rope-Handling" or, like D&D, "Use Rope"?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I really can't see that as anything more than not wanting to delve into the innards of a skill that is cryptic even at the surface level to most players.

If it's good enough for one skill, it's good enough for others. Idiosyncratic exceptions make systems hard to handle, especially for newcomers.

[scorpion]

Met a guy IRL who probably was a Lvl 20 Knot Tier. He was a Scout Leader who won and competing in Scout Leader Knot Tying competitions, the Scouts in his Troop were routinely winning. He had tricks to tie basic knots faster...

It's a skill that I would think anyone in a military, outdoor, or other capacity should have a point in. Given that 11 year olds learn basic knots in less than 200 hours, I would think that you could do anything needed with a point there (big bonuses for basics), but:

Tie this guy up blindfolded with sirens going off is another story. The ability to improvise things is pretty cool. The things you can do with one of those paracord safety bracelets is impressive.

[simply Nathan]

Originally Posted by scorpion

Met a guy IRL who probably was a Lvl 20 Knot Tier. He was a Scout Leader who won and competing in Scout Leader Knot Tying competitions, the Scouts in his Troop were routinely winning. He had tricks to tie basic knots faster...

More likely a 12 or a 15. A skill of twelve means you can reliably use it as a profession, provided you can find employment where this is the primary skill called for. Skill 15 is markedly better at it than that, a true expert. 20 is for someone legendary like Harry Houdini at Escape or William Shakespeare at Writing/Poetry.

Most people going around have one of DX 9 with Knot-Tying 5, DX 10 with Knot-Tying-6, or DX 11 with Knot-Tying-7. A person even with a skill of 10 can tie the same knots a lot faster by virtue of needing to take less Extra Time bonuses to succeed reliably.