Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-06-2014, 08:19 AM   #31
cptbutton
 
cptbutton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Default Re: [Space] and [UT] for New Space Opera

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
It was quite clear to me that one could live off the dividend and many did. I think Felix's friend the mathematician did that due to an indifference to most things that weren't math.
Who do you mean? The only mathematician I recall is Monroe Alpha, who wasn't living on dividend, he had a top level government job as an economist.

I agree with you that the idea that the value of labor is too low to live on doesn't fit the book as I remember it.

One problem with figuring out details like this for the book is that we really don't see many people who aren't upper class. The control natural bartender is the only one I recall.
cptbutton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2014, 09:16 AM   #32
Agemegos
 
Agemegos's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Oz
Default Re: [Space] and [UT] for New Space Opera

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
It was quite clear to me that one could live off the dividend and many did.
I didn't say or imply otherwise. I said that people couldn't live (at a socially acceptable standard of living) off the wage of labour. Or rather, off the wage that labour would get if there were no dividend, since one of the effects of the dividend would be to reduce the labour supply and thus raise the wage rate.

Quote:
Felix's work as a game designer (think pinball machines for those who haven't read the book) was a way to avoid boredom and what he produced helped other people avoid boredom. Avoiding boredom does not meet my definition of "economic need".
That's entirely beside the point. Felix was a very talented designer, and his work made him rich. That doesn't tell us anything about the wage rate of pure labour. If there were a character who made his income doing unskilled work, such as sweeping floors, and who refused his dividend, and who was able to live decently on his wage alone, then my statement would be on shaky ground.

Quote:
The government certainly suffered from no scarcity except possibly a scarcity of worthwhile projects to spend their money on.
That's complete nonsense. If they had no scarcity there would be no question of their spending money, and that high powered government committee would not be considering what projects to greenlight. With no scarcity you do everything you have any inclination for.

Having all your important needs met, so that you get to choose between luxuries, is wealth, but it is not post-scarcity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptbutton View Post
I agree with you that the idea that the value of labor is too low to live on doesn't fit the book as I remember it.
The counter-example would be someone refusing his or her dividend and living on the wage of unskilled labour.

Quote:
One problem with figuring out details like this for the book is that we really don't see many people who aren't upper class. The control natural bartender is the only one I recall.
Yes, and he has an extra-large dividend, and a wife with her own extra-large dividend. Besides, I seem to remember that he owned the bar; if so he had the income on his capital and the profit of his entrepreneurship as well as the wage of his labour. And yet the issue he discussed with Felix was why he bothered to work. Which implies that he didn't need his wage, not that he didn't need his dividend.

His example implies that the wages was small and you could live on your dividend, not that the dividend was small and you could live on your wages.
__________________

Decay is inherent in all composite things.
Nod head. Get treat.

Last edited by Agemegos; 09-06-2014 at 03:06 PM.
Agemegos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2014, 10:40 AM   #33
vicky_molokh
GURPS FAQ Keeper
 
vicky_molokh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyïv, Ukraine
Default Re: [Space] and [UT] for New Space Opera

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agemegos View Post
That's complete nonsense. If they had no scarcity there would be no question of their spending money, and that high powered government committee would not be considering what projects to greenlight. With no scarcity you do everything you have any inclination for.

Having all your important needs met, so that you get to choose between luxuries, is wealth, but it is not post-scarcity.
Sounds like the definition of post-scarcity that is either useless or borderline so.
__________________
Vicky 'Molokh', GURPS FAQ and uFAQ Keeper
vicky_molokh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2014, 11:06 AM   #34
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: [Space] and [UT] for New Space Opera

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Sounds like the definition of post-scarcity that is either useless or borderline so.
It doesn't describe anything in the real world of course or anything plausible, but does describe certain fictional realities that ignore conservation of energy and the human tendency to expand desires as they are met.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-scarcity_economy

However, once again I must emphasize, that it doesn't matter for the purpose of this subject whether a science fiction story is set in a post-scarcity setting if that story is not in fact a space opera.
David Johnston2 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2014, 02:22 PM   #35
Agemegos
 
Agemegos's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Oz
Default Re: [Space] and [UT] for New Space Opera

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Sounds like the definition of post-scarcity that is either useless or borderline so.
It arises from a definition of "scarcity" that is very revealing theoretically and important technically. It illuminates what an economy is, and what an economy has to do, and it reveals what some important kinds of economic failure consist of. When you are considering an alternative to a conventional economic arrangements, scarcity is the issue that your alternative has to resolve. So even if the complete absence of all scarcity sounds silly, "scarcity" isn't a term that you can secretly redefine without sowing confusion, and the absence or scarcity isn't something that you can casually invoke without sweeping implications.


POSTSCRIPT

It's by no means guaranteed that an arbitrary concatenation of technical terms — or any terms — will yield a useful meaning. "Monomorphic hemispherectomy" is a meaningless phrase, but I wouldn't consider that a knock-down rebuttal of the brain surgeon who told me so.
__________________

Decay is inherent in all composite things.
Nod head. Get treat.

Last edited by Agemegos; 09-06-2014 at 08:11 PM.
Agemegos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2014, 02:28 PM   #36
sir_pudding
Wielder of Smart Pants
 
sir_pudding's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
Default Re: [Space] and [UT] for New Space Opera

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
However, once again I must emphasize, that it doesn't matter for the purpose of this subject whether a science fiction story is set in a post-scarcity setting if that story is not in fact a space opera.
It also probably doesn't matter if that story was written before 1977 or thereabouts, if you want a new space opera.
sir_pudding is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2014, 02:53 PM   #37
Agemegos
 
Agemegos's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Oz
Default Re: [Space] and [UT] for New Space Opera

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
it doesn't matter for the purpose of this subject whether a science fiction story is set in a post-scarcity setting if that story is not in fact a space opera.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
It also probably doesn't matter if that story was written before 1977 or thereabouts, if you want a new space opera.
Those are strong points. On the other hand, though, "post-scarcity" is something that writers sometimes appeal to or attempt to portray in space opera, including I think some new space opera. So it's not something I would like to see misunderstood or misrepresented.
__________________

Decay is inherent in all composite things.
Nod head. Get treat.
Agemegos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2014, 02:59 PM   #38
sir_pudding
Wielder of Smart Pants
 
sir_pudding's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
Default Re: [Space] and [UT] for New Space Opera

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agemegos View Post
Those are strong points. On the other hand, though, "post-scarcity" is something that writers sometimes appeal to or attempt to portray in space opera, including I think some new space opera. So it's not something I would like to see misunderstood or misrepresented.
Sure, but maybe we should talk about it as it appears in Excession, or Singularity Sky, or even Merchant of Souls rather than how it appears in Beyond the Horizon.

I'd hope that could probably also discuss it with page references to GURPS Space or Ultra-Tech, or take it back to the other thread (if it is just going to be about genre definition), but I think this is just me.
sir_pudding is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2014, 06:15 PM   #39
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: [Space] and [UT] for New Space Opera

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agemegos View Post
I didn't say or imply otherwise. I said that people couldn't live (at a socially acceptable standard of living) off the wage of labour.
Then lets just say that your definition of post-scarcity is so different from mine that I do not believe we can usefully discuss the matter. Your repeated point about the low value of unskilled human labor is particularly mysterious to me. I can't see how it would even matter.
__________________
Fred Brackin
Fred Brackin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2014, 06:42 PM   #40
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: [Space] and [UT] for New Space Opera

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Then lets just say that your definition of post-scarcity is so different from mine that I do not believe we can usefully discuss the matter. Your repeated point about the low value of unskilled human labor is particularly mysterious to me. I can't see how it would even matter.
The low value of labor does seem irrelevant, but the point that 'post scarcity' doesn't just mean 'post poverty' is legitimate...
__________________
I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident.
Ulzgoroth is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
new space opera, sci fi, space, space opera, ultra-tech

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.