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Old 06-24-2011, 12:12 PM   #1
Jason
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
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Default Elohim and Emotions

A friend of mine will soon be running an Elohite for one of my games. I'm interested to see how it turns out, as he's actually quite in touch with his own emotions. Have any of you had any experiences playing (or being GM for) such a PC? I'm curious how you handle dissonance and such, as Elohim seem so dispassionate in most of the books, but Elohim of Fire especially are described as passionate-but-still-logical.

My friend's PC, at least, used to be an Elohite of Fire, concerned with inspiring love and passion, and punishing the emotionally abusive. He switched to Creation when Gabriel went off the deep end, where he could keep doing pretty much what he did before, but Eli put him back in service to Fire just before ditching Heaven. So now he's in a sort of awkward situation with Gabriel, more concerned with spreading inspiration, but more capable than ever of beating the holy hell out the cruel (thanks to the Malakite of Creation attunement he picked up in the meantime). He's kind of a Jackie Chan type character: jolly, unassuming, and creatively violent only when the need arises.

I'm looking forward to having an Elohite who's completely different from the other Elohite in the game (essentially "Ms. Spock"), but I want to make sure I'm giving the player useful guidance on how to avoid dissonance conditions (or putting the player in interesting situations where dissonance seems painful but necessary to avoid). Tips and war stories all welcome.
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Old 06-24-2011, 01:17 PM   #2
Acolyte
 
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Default Re: Elohim and Emotions

This is going to sound very off, I think, compared to the true Elohite ideal, but when it comes to actually gaming at the table with dissonance you have to make a few allowances, and here is what I've seen: players of Elohite PCs tend to be very good at rationalizing whatever they planned to do in the first place. Only when the logic train is utterly spurious (or nonexistent) should dissonance come into play. When it's just "a stretch, man", as a GM I'd give the player a squinty look to warn him off repeating it but let it pass. Over time, a good IN player with a new dissonance condition learns to avoid the sketchy bits as a matter of course. I mean, look how epically Khalid rationalized irrational behavior in The Final Trumpet (nearly led to his Fall, of course, but it didn't).

Nothing ever forbids an Elohite from expressing emotion or subjective opinions, only acting on them. As a comparison, Seraphim can fast-talk without lying, but it's distasteful because it is too close to dissonance for comfort. Likewise, Elohim can allow themselves to voice their subjectivity, but since it's a small step from voicing it to acting on it, most go the Vulcan robot route. It's safer, and angels don't like playing with fire when it comes to dissonance (not Fire, heheheh).

Elohim of Fire I see as beings that feel very hard, and express those feelings, but ultimately act on logical courses of action, with "obeying my Superior Gabriel's dictates to punish the cruel" as a very logical line of reasoning. I once played an Elohite of Fire that was a fetish club owner, keeping the dom/sub relationship healthy for both parties. (It was a weird game, with a really free-acting Creationer poetry professor and a Destiny Servitor working as a metal band roadie.)

For a "jolly, unassuming" Elohite, I'd tell the player that's totally okay, as long as the PC never chooses to act either jolly or unassuming when presenting a different face is more logical.

As for advice on putting him in difficult situations, you should find out what the PC wants (or the player wants) that isn't objectively always useful, and throw that in his path. For example, if the party has a favored human, have that human walk in the door while the Elohite of Fire is "creatively punishing" a cruel human and freak out. The Elohite has to choose between continuing the punishment his Superior has ordered without dragging it on so long as to be cruel himself (the objectively correct course) or putting down the hot poker and going after the human to awkwardly explain things (an emotional decision to try and keep a friend, potentially dissonant).* Think about things that players almost always want--more relics and Songs--and use them as bait. An Elohite who abandons his heavenly duties to track down rumors of a strange artifact is acting subjectively (even if recovering the artifact would aid heaven, he has to go with what is more objectively known--although the rest of the party isn't bound by that)**. For the PC you describe, rumors of Eli himself might be a very powerful subjective motivator.

*Of course, the player could say that he put the torture on hold because he thought that the human might leave the angels' service, which would be a loss for Heaven, and thus the objective course of action was to stop the "fun" torture and go after the horrified human. This is what I meant by "rationalizing what you want"--both lines of reasoning are good ones, and both arrive at opposing answers as far as objectivity goes. Neither is a spurious explanation, either, so I'd probably let the PC do whichever course of action the player claims is most objective without imposing dissonance.

**Here, the reasoning "but it could be useful" really is spurious, using logic to obviously justify what the player wants to do, and would involve dissonance.
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Old 06-24-2011, 01:56 PM   #3
Jason
 
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Default Re: Elohim and Emotions

All good advice -- especially using Eli himself as a specific motivator. I will have to think about that.

I think you're right that players will find a way to rationalize things as best they can to fit their dissonance conditions. Part of me wonders if that should bother me (because it doesn't very much), so it's reassuring to hear someone else say that this may not be a big deal in day-to-day play.
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Old 06-24-2011, 03:00 PM   #4
alexondria
 
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Default Re: Elohim and Emotions

my take has been that it's ok for an Elohim to act purely on emotion as long as their is not a logically better choice available. I've never actually seen Elohim as needing to be the Mr. Spocks of the world. In fact suppressing their emotions could if you are an especially mean GM lead to dissonance if it would be more logical to share them.

point A: So say the Elohim likes apples better than oranges and is presented with a choice between the 2, as long as their is no logical reason for him to need to eat the apple their is no dissonance for him picking the orange because he likes it better. Another example I've used is say the Elohim loves another angel and has a relationship with them. This should not be dissonant. Now say he's asked to recommend people for an extremely dangerous mission that they likely won't be coming back from and said lover is the most qualified. If he doesn't recommend them because of his emotions he's strayed into the territory of dissonance.

Point B: Elohim A is in a party with several angels. One of the angels has a habit that gets on his nerves. It's not that the angel is evil or anything that will cause trouble for Heaven- the Elohim just doesn't like it. Here he has a few options for how to handle it. A) Talk to the other angel and let him know that it bothers you in hopes that he will stop. (assuming good party dynamic the most logical) B) Try and ignore it because you shouldn't be feeling what you are. (But you are feeling it and ignoring it is likely to just make it grow and increase resentment in the group) C) Ask for a transfer (potentially logical if the team doesn't desperately need you for some reason) D) Become passive aggressive about the matter. (Likely the worst option for an Elohim).

Last edited by alexondria; 06-24-2011 at 03:04 PM.
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Old 06-24-2011, 08:24 PM   #5
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Default Re: Elohim and Emotions

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexondria View Post
[A] Elohim is in a party with several angels.
I think I've heard this joke before. :P

All joking aside, this thread brings up the same issue as the Seraphim and Profanity thread. I think most of what I would argue here is over on there (inhumane robotic Vulcans). What I will say is that I despise absolutes in my characters (like the D&D alignments).

If Elohim want to be passionate, let them be passionate. Just make sure their passion does not overrule their reason (e.g., their anger causes them to take vengeance). It does not mean they are not allowed to get angry.

Just as Seraphim are the best at distinguishing truth in others, Elohim are the best at distinguishing emotions in others. I do not believe that either Seraphim or Elohim are totally clueless or completely inept in distinguishing in themselves what they do best with others.
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Last edited by DBloch2012; 10-10-2012 at 08:07 PM.
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Old 06-25-2011, 09:49 AM   #6
Jason
 
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Default Re: Elohim and Emotions

Yeah, it kind of bugs me that most of the Elohim described in canon materials are basically interchangeable in terms of personality (if not in their Words and goals). The only Elohim who actually show some personality that I can remember are Khalid (who's close to sailing off the deep end) and a character in Liber Servitorum who was described as being reported by an angel of Judgment for "showing excessive emotion." I am happy to have the bland and robotic character in my campaign from time to time, but it's nice to mix things up a bit as well.

Thanks again for all the feedback!
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Old 06-26-2011, 05:54 PM   #7
Archangel Beth
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Default Re: Elohim and Emotions

Well, my take on Elohim is already in GURPS In Nomine... O;>
Quote:
Originally Posted by GURPS In Nomine
It’s easy to see them as emotionless; it’s rare indeed for an Elohite to decide that manifesting a temper tantrum is in the best interests of the Symphony. [...] It would be a mistake to believe them to be cold and heartless, though. The Powers feel emotions . . . they merely have great practice in ignoring them to do what is right. [...] Only a few of them strive to feel nothing but logic and necessity.
Aside from making them slightly different from Vulcans, I think this makes them a heck of a lot more playable. Not only does it give a better "handle" on them for a player to get into, it also gives the GM more hooks into them -- you can endanger someone the Elohite cares about, and watch to see if it can weasel its way to a logical reason to do something about that. (And if it can find a way to maintain the rest of the Plan of the Day, as well as do what it wants, that's quite arguably better for the Symphony than to let someone get hurt who won't benefit from the experience. But they gotta logic out how to keep the Objectively More Important Situation from being adversely affected by the Objectively Less Important Situation.)
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Old 06-26-2011, 08:59 PM   #8
Rocket Man
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Default Re: Elohim and Emotions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archangel Beth View Post
Aside from making them slightly different from Vulcans, I think this makes them a heck of a lot more playable. Not only does it give a better "handle" on them for a player to get into, it also gives the GM more hooks into them -- you can endanger someone the Elohite cares about, and watch to see if it can weasel its way to a logical reason to do something about that.
Yes, indeed. This fits an Elohite I've played in a brief San Francisco campaign; a billionaire angel of The Waters who heads up the Pacific Promise Foundation. He cares very deeply and isn't afraid to show it, but his grants and his more personal actions are based on what would benefit Heaven's position in the state, the region and (occasionally) the country at the moment.

(Yes, angel of The Waters. In this particular campaign, Oannes wasn't killed, he was just drastically weakened for a time ... before Belial could finish him off, the Archangel fled into the depths of the sea, where the Prince of Fire dared not follow.)
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Old 06-26-2011, 09:35 PM   #9
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Default Re: Elohim and Emotions

Quote:
you can endanger someone the Elohite cares about, and watch to see if it can weasel its way to a logical reason to do something about that. (And if it can find a way to maintain the rest of the Plan of the Day, as well as do what it wants, that's quite arguably better for the Symphony than to let someone get hurt who won't benefit from the experience. But they gotta logic out how to keep the Objectively More Important Situation from being adversely affected by the Objectively Less Important Situation.)
Even if things are okay in the end, an Elohite who increased his risk of failure at a task for an emotional entanglement is at least courting dissonance, if not actually dissonant. If an Elohite has to stop a demon from shooting the mayor at a nonspecified time later that night, and he takes a detour to drop a wounded colleague off at the ER (or at the local Tether to Flowers, or whatever), he increases the chance he'll get to the mayor too late, for which I might assign dissonance.
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Old 06-26-2011, 09:42 PM   #10
Jason
 
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Default Re: Elohim and Emotions

Okay, I guess I need to get GURPS IN if there's stuff like that in there. Plus Grigori! :)
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