And ye shall know the Truth ...

[DBloch2012]

Does this mean Lucifer has to attune himself to a Demon Prince? Because, technically, he is not one. He is just a regular Demon (i.e., Fallen Angel). Or is it that he is a Demon Prince (i.e., Fallen Archangel)? In that case, does that mean any Archangel that Falls will become a Demon Prince? Or do they still need Lucifer's permission?

It says in the Core Rules that Lucifer is a Balseraph. And he may have had a Word before his Fall. After that, everything is a guessing game. However, I believe the way he is presented is meant to be the leader of Hell's forces in the same way that God leads Heaven.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by DBloch2012

It says in the Core Rules that Lucifer is a Balseraph. And he may have had a Word before his Fall. After that, everything is a guessing game. However, I believe the way he is presented is meant to be the leader of Hell's forces in the same way that God leads Heaven.

This is one of the more interesting things about Lucifer, to me (which gets touched upon a bit in the Game Master's Guide). Lucifer doesn't quite lead hell, and God doesn't quite lead Heaven. Lucifer is actually a discrete character, and he's reserved for himself an "advisory role" in Hell, plus the honor of getting to bestow Words. And God hasn't really said anything audible in centuries, so it really is the Seraphim Council that leads things in Heaven. (If God were really taking an active lead in Heaven, there wouldn't be so much disagreement among Archangels, particularly in the Michael-Yves and Dominic-Gabriel conflicts.)

This fact -- that Lucifer is "just" another demon -- is why several other Princes see themselves as potential usurpers to Lucifer's "throne," as it were, or at least able to act beyond his plans (as described in some of the expanded Superiors supplements). How could any Word be higher than The Game, which describes what the whole Symphony is about? Or perhaps The War, which describes the situation that frames all of celestials' existence? Or even Fate, which refers not just to the Fate of humanity, but the entire universe? And being Prince of Factions means not really giving a damn what anybody else wants, so long as the end result is complete and utter isolation for everyone...

[DBloch2012]

I guess I will just have to agree to disagree, and leave it at that.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by DBloch2012

Does this mean Lucifer has to attune himself to a Demon Prince? Because, technically, he is not one. He is just a regular Demon (i.e., Fallen Angel). Or is it that he is a Demon Prince (i.e., Fallen Archangel)? In that case, does that mean any Archangel that Falls will become a Demon Prince? Or do they still need Lucifer's permission?

Technically, Lucifer is a Demon King or at least acknowledged as the toughest Prince on the block ... the others hold their Principalities through him. And I don't know if it's hard-and-fast, but a lot of fallen Archangels in canon do seem to have become Princes (and in one adventure, The Final Trumpet, there's the possibility for the Archangel of Faith to fall into the Prince of Fanaticism.)

[Jason]

Originally Posted by DBloch2012

I guess I will just have to agree to disagree, and leave it at that.

And that's okay -- I'm not trying to convince you that my way, or the way described in canon, is the "right" way to play. Just trying to give a sense of how some of us have approached the world. I'm happy to help think through some ways of making the game world feel more logically symmetrical, if that'd be useful.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by Jason

And that's okay -- I'm not trying to convince you that my way, or the way described in canon, is the "right" way to play. Just trying to give a sense of how some of us have approached the world.

Second that. We all vary from the "party line" to a greater or lesser degree -- chat with ISNorden sometime about the major revisions she's made to create a potent "Third Side" of ethereals and ethereal-aligned celestials!

[Matthias Wasser]

Originally Posted by Jason

I'm happy to help think through some ways of making the game world feel more logically symmetrical, if that'd be useful.

And I keep meaning to make a thread dedicated to making things less symmetrical. Different strokes indeed!

[ladyarcana55]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

More seriously, I certainly don't see this as mind-reading. It's the examination of a statement in comparison to the Truth of the Symphony and the person's heart. What I'm not sure about is whether the Seraph can properly resonate -- whether he/she can properly examine the statement -- if he/she doesn't even know what the statement is or whether a meaningful statement has been made.

Sorry all, I'm a little late jumping in on this one, but a thought occurred to me and I thought I would bounce it off everyone and see what you all thought.

Yes, a Seraph's resonance is based on what is said. My question is, does it matter if they understand what was said?

For instance...

Brad says something in French and Susie the Seraph doesn't speak or understand French. Whatever Brad just said, he lied. In my mind it stands to reason that Susie may not understand what he said, but she is getting the same physical and spiritual reactions that tell her he didn't speak the truth.

My contention is that even though Susie doesn't know what Brad said, the Symphony does, and it's the Symphony that conveys to Susie the Truth of his words. If that's the case I don't know that it is a requirement that Susie be fluent in a language to be able to discern the truthfulness of the statement.

But in this case, because Susie isn't fluent in the language that was used, all Susie would be able to know is that Brad lied and whether he intended to lie. She wouldn't be able to say what the full Truth was or the exact reasons he lied. At best she would only be able to get very general answers.

So, on a CD 6 she would know...

Brad purposely lied
He lied because he didn't want to get in trouble
He knows the real truth

For her to get more specific and complete answers she would have to be able to understand his words. At least, that is what I would rule. My concern is that if she can't resonate off him at all, then that's a way to beat their resonance. I don't know if I like the thought of any Choir's resonance being defeated so easily.

[William]

Originally Posted by ladyarcana55

So, on a CD 6 she would know...

Brad purposely lied
He lied because he didn't want to get in trouble
He knows the real truth

This much she gets on CD 5. CD 6 is special, because you do get more specific information from the Symphony. She would know what the truth is that he lied about -- even if she doesn't know precisely what it is he said that was a lie!

Narratively, here is what such an experience would be like. Brad lies in French. Susie listens. She doesn't speak French, but she resonates the statement, listening for the distinct feel of Symphonic truth.

She hears the ugly tone of deliberate deception, and realizes the motivation (he didn't want to get into trouble) that ties it inescapably to what Brad knows -- the real truth. Like counterpoint against his melody, she sees him taking a handful from the petty cash himself, watches his mind try to wrap it in lies in the slippery way of untruth and the cottony vagueness of human tongues she doesn't know. What she doesn't know is whether he has just said he didn't know who took it, or blamed a delivery boy, or suggested that Susie did.