Gettysburg scenario

[offsides]

Originally Posted by Stabliser

I had a nice long reply keyed in and my browser crashed - grrr

Anyway, trading in cards as VP to get reinforcements - a bit like Risk, but we dont want players to reduce the variety of reinforcements by always trading in the mobile howitzer for 2 heavy tanks, so er, hmmm..?

I thought about that, and that's why I eventually settled on the 'chit' method. Originally I was going to have players draw cards from a 6-12 stack every turn, and could either use them or turn them is to "buy" highter value cards (2 cards for a 18-24 VP stack, 4 cards for the 36-48 VP stack) that they had to use right away. But I realized exactly what you're referring to - they could look at them and decide to trade up if they didn't like that card.

And for reference, that VP value refers to the stack of cards to pick from - you don't just get that many VP of reinforcements (although that's also a perfectly reasonable way to do it if you want), you have to take whatever that value card gives you.

Originally Posted by Stabliser

Your simple VP table looks a bit like the ogre CRT

That's EXACTLY what I was going for - not only did it make sense, but it fit "thematically".

Originally Posted by Stabliser

Starting VP could be generated randomly, and the player with the lower starting VP gets the difference in VP chits for future reinforcements (but watch his face when hes 50 VP down on turn 1 and he draws marines and mobile howitzers for the first 2 turns )

Hmm... now there's an idea - draw a random set of cards without showing them, and have players "bid" the number of chits they think they need to defeat it. Lowest bid gets that many chits, the other player gets the random cards. Once they're all revealed, the player with fewer VP total gets additional chits to beef up their forces over the first couple of turns...

Originally Posted by Stabliser

I counted about 100 reinforcement cards needed for the table I initially did some cards for. So I think that number needs reduced down quite a bit before anyone would print a set (and for me to get round to finishing a set) maybe 10-30 cards to a set, printing 9 to a page, so 27 seems like a good number to get started with. Did you see the idea I had for a card for cruse missiles - I don't know if that fits with reinforcements, but I thought I'd put the idea out there.

First - I looked at your new cards this morning, and I like them a lot (especially the "1 missile tank or...?" card - I like the idea that some cards have a semi-random result built in). As for the cruise missile card, I really like the concept. Not sure if a battleship firing them would be the appropriate platform, but that part's a simple fix. And the delay in arrival makes a lot of sense. FYI, off-board cruise missiles are 12 VP each, so that card would be worth 24 VP.

As to the size of the deck(s), I think they'd have to be on the large side anyway. After all, there are really only 6 options for 6VP cards, and unless you were mixing the card values withing a single deck, you'd want more than 6 cards to pick from. Either you're drawing them and not putting them back until they're all used (in which case you eliminate 1 possibility each draw, and the last card is a certainty after only 5 draws) or you're reshuffling the whole deck each time, in which case you might want to have multiple copies of some or all of the cards to allow different odds on different units.

I'd really like to turn this into a marketable product, probably funded via Kickstarter. I'm thinking that there would be several different "booster" packs, either with random cards (I'm not fond of that, but some people are) or with pre-set card types, and people could pick and choose what and how many of each they wanted. Here's a list of all the groupings I was thinking, probably around 15 cards each:

1. 6 VP Reinforcements
2. 12 VP Reinforcements
3. 18 VP Reinforcements (common)
4. 24 VP Reinforcements (common)
5. 36 VP Reinforcements (common)
6. 48 VP Reinforcements (common)
7. 18-24 VP Reinforcements (specialty)
8. 36-48 VP Reinforcements (specialty)
9. Special Reinforcements (Ogres, Cruise Missiles, etc.)
10. Entry Points
11. Objectives

Most people playing smaller games might only go for the 6 & 12 VP packs. Bigger games could use the higher point ones for reinforcements, or starting units. The specialty cards would be units that were either less common (like MAR), or perhaps groupings of units that were harder to work with.

For entry points, I've been thinking that there's a better way to handle losing edges to multi-map games, and here's how. Cards that call for entry onto a side work like this (e.g.): Enter from any N edge hex numbered between 0101 and 0112. You would only need 8 cards like that (first and last hex values of 01-12 and 12-23, N/S/E/W edges - S edge needs an exception to cover 22XX edge hexes but that's all), and in a multi-map scenario the edge hex rule eliminates the middle hexes. I also think that there should be cards for entry via any road hex on each of the 4 edges, and perhaps even one for any rail hex.

Objective cards are the hardest since they require the most consideration for balancing purposes. They also are harder to work with, since they aren't always going to be in opposition, so they need to be more for "individual achievement" purposes rather than actual gameplay rules. But they do add flavor, and in a large free-for-all they would probably work very well. Another thing they could do is have specific timeframe goals that allow you to trade them in for reinforcements if you successfully achieve them in time...

Anyway, until ODE goes fully to print, I doubt SJG is even going to consider discussing 3rd party supplements, but if people like the card ideas enough, maybe it's worth investigating. Otherwise, "print-your-own" it is :)

[Stabliser]

Originally Posted by offsides

First - I looked at your new cards this morning, and I like them a lot (especially the "1 missile tank or...?" card - I like the idea that some cards have a semi-random result built in). As for the cruise missile card, I really like the concept. Not sure if a battleship firing them would be the appropriate platform, but that part's a simple fix. And the delay in arrival makes a lot of sense. FYI, off-board cruise missiles are 12 VP each, so that card would be worth 24 VP.

Cruise missile card adjusted. The 'missile tank or ...' card needs a modification to the card template to get a 3rd die roll result in the box, another card template may work better, I'm experimenting.

Originally Posted by offsides

As to the size of the deck(s), I think they'd have to be on the large side anyway. After all, there are really only 6 options for 6VP cards, and unless you were mixing the card values withing a single deck, you'd want more than 6 cards to pick from. Either you're drawing them and not putting them back until they're all used (in which case you eliminate 1 possibility each draw, and the last card is a certainty after only 5 draws) or you're reshuffling the whole deck each time, in which case you might want to have multiple copies of some or all of the cards to allow different odds on different units.

I suspect that a reasonable number of cards will be needed to test this idea, but I also suspect that many changes will occur after testing, so I'd rather redo 27 than 100, after the 27 were right, adding the other 73 in the correct form would be less likely to be wasted effort, although I still think 100 is more than most people would print. And I'd rather it was just 1 card pile to draw from rather than a pile for each level of VP - I think this is where we diverge in our idea, but please keep trying to persuade me,

Originally Posted by offsides

I'd really like to turn this into a marketable product, probably funded via Kickstarter. I'm thinking that there would be several different "booster" packs, either with random cards (I'm not fond of that, but some people are) or with pre-set card types, and people could pick and choose what and how many of each they wanted.

I don't think cards that add to the ogre board game would work as randomized collectable cards, A totally separate ogre card game might work, but that'll be something for SJG to pursue anyway.

Originally Posted by offsides

For entry points, I've been thinking that there's a better way to handle losing edges to multi-map games, and here's how. Cards that call for entry onto a side work like this (e.g.): Enter from any N edge hex numbered between 0101 and 0112. You would only need 8 cards like that (first and last hex values of 01-12 and 12-23, N/S/E/W edges - S edge needs an exception to cover 22XX edge hexes but that's all), and in a multi-map scenario the edge hex rule eliminates the middle hexes. I also think that there should be cards for entry via any road hex on each of the 4 edges, and perhaps even one for any rail hex.

Right! Good, that's the generic way to handle it, I'll bodge something together for critique.

Originally Posted by offsides

Objective cards are the hardest since they require the most consideration for balancing purposes. They also are harder to work with, since they aren't always going to be in opposition, so they need to be more for "individual achievement" purposes rather than actual gameplay rules. But they do add flavor, and in a large free-for-all they would probably work very well. Another thing they could do is have specific timeframe goals that allow you to trade them in for reinforcements if you successfully achieve them in time...

Maybe the defender has to pick a group of objective cards, put all the relevant buildings on the map, then had those cards to the attacker who randomly picks one of them and keeps it hidden.

Originally Posted by offsides

Anyway, until ODE goes fully to print, I doubt SJG is even going to consider discussing 3rd party supplements, but if people like the card ideas enough, maybe it's worth investigating. Otherwise, "print-your-own" it is :)

The closest we may come to 3rd party supplements may be the $4,500 kickstarter sheets.

[offsides]

Originally Posted by Stabliser

Cruise missile card adjusted. The 'missile tank or ...' card needs a modification to the card template to get a 3rd die roll result in the box, another card template may work better, I'm experimenting.

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with - I love the concept. Maybe you can just shrink things vertically and reduce the font size?

Originally Posted by Stabliser

I suspect that a reasonable number of cards will be needed to test this idea, but I also suspect that many changes will occur after testing, so I'd rather redo 27 than 100, after the 27 were right, adding the other 73 in the correct form would be less likely to be wasted effort, although I still think 100 is more than most people would print. And I'd rather it was just 1 card pile to draw from rather than a pile for each level of VP - I think this is where we diverge in our idea, but please keep trying to persuade me,

1) I agree that a smaller number of cards is good for testing. I also think that 90% of the time, 6 + 12 VP cards will be sufficient, with the possibility of a higher-value "special" popping up as a treat. I was looking at the larger number as part of a whole system which allowed cards to be used for lots of different things. 2) The "print-your-own" setup would be very different from the "commercial supplement" one, I'm just not ready to abandon the possibility of the latter. 3) As to the piles, I think it all depends on what the goal is. If you're just dong random reinforcements and don't care if one player gets a single MSL and the next gets a whole GEV company, 1 pile works fine. And the random luck makes starting forces very interesting. But if you're trying to do some sort of scaled reinforcements where you get better odds of higher value cards if you wait before calling them in, you NEED separate piles. I don't think there's any one "right" way to do it, it's one of those things where if all sides agree beforehand, anything they agree on is fair game.

Originally Posted by Stabliser

I don't think cards that add to the ogre board game would work as randomized collectable cards, A totally separate ogre card game might work, but that'll be something for SJG to pursue anyway.

Not going to be randomized or collectable - the more I think about it, the more I KNOW it needs to be fixed sets in each package. But I still think there's room for multiple packs with each pack representing reinforcements at different levels (and other types of cards). The average player would probably only buy the 6 and maybe 12 VP packs (e.g., I'm thinking the 6 VP pack would be 2 of each 6 VP unit, plus 3 extra 3/1 INF cards). People wanting to do either bigger scenarios, or use the cards for starting units, would probably interested in getting bigger value cards. I'm not looking for a separate card game, I'm looking to use cards to enhance the existing game.

Originally Posted by Stabliser

Right! Good, that's the generic way to handle it, I'll bodge something together for critique.

Thanks - looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

Originally Posted by Stabliser

Maybe the defender has to pick a group of objective cards, put all the relevant buildings on the map, then had those cards to the attacker who randomly picks one of them and keeps it hidden.

That's certainly one way of doing it. I wasn't just thinking about having building objectives, I was thinking of things like "occupy all hexes of the city around 2103" or "keep all enemy units off the road between 0104 and 2204 for 3 turns". Things like that would either be revealed once the conditions were met, or at the end of the game. But your way definitely makes things interesting for random objectives too.

Originally Posted by Stabliser

The closest we may come to 3rd party supplements may be the $4,500 kickstarter sheets.

I'm hoping that SJ will be open to the idea of licensing Ogre to people with good ideas that they don't want to be directly involved with financially. I expect they'd want to vet anything before it was published anyway, but given their online policy for fan creations, I'm hoping they'd be willing to at least consider it. If not, there's no reason not to do it as a fan creation, since their online policy should allow this particular type of supplement and is easy enough to follow. The only question I have is do the trademark notices have to go on each card, or can they just be in the documentation that goes with it?

[six's monkey]

Assuming this foray is deemed to be benign or better still, beneficial to SJG, I'm already looking to set aside some cash for sleeves and will print my own, up to a couple hundred different cards to have scenario ruffling options.

I'm thinking either commander could roll once per turn to request support, with each attempt adding a cumulative +1 mod until success ( maybe 10 or higher on 2d6) and success resetting the mod plus giving +3 to the opposing commander's roll. Success results in a draw from the appropriate "weight" forces deck, a draw from the entry zone and delay (both on same card), and a draw from the "minor objectives" deck.

Minor objectives could be "do this before these units can show up" or "do this and earn these VPs, maybe these units will help." Other broad types are possible, too, of course. :-)

Perhaps unfulfilled minor objectives would 'cost' VPs, and thus screaming for more would not always be wise. Perhaps all Ogres come with their own objectives and battle damage from previous engagements and thus at least partially balance themselves as draws. "With great power comes great responsibility." :-)

[Stabliser]

Im necroing this thread as its content seems relevant to current discussions about ogre cards (reference cards/reinforcement cards etc)
Hopefuly Im not breaking forum taboo...