Micro Managing Illusions?

[warhorse11h]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

ITL pg 138... "An illusion also moves, speaks and fights as its creator commands."

The language leaves some room for interpretation, but for me it seems to imply that the wizard must maintain active control over the illusion. The illusion has no mind of its own so autonomous action is a stretch IMO. That said, however, there should be a way for the wizard to 'program' certain basic actions that don't depend on an illusion's non-existent awareness of the environment.

I think I would have to disagree with you on the autonomous actions. ITL also says, "Since illusions are in part fed by the observers, an illusion will always act as the “average” type of the thing it is. An illusion of a fighter will fight as a standard beginning fighter, with ST, DX, and IQ adding to 32. A wizard cannot create an illusion of a highly-experienced fighter unless it appears to be some powerful fighter known to the enemy. If they recognize him, they will think they are fighting that powerful hero – and in such a case, an illusion of a man might have ST of 16 and DX of 14, quite legally. Note, though: if the people who see the illusion do not recognize it, it won’t get that extra ST and DX. If they do recognize it, they may try to disbelieve!"

The gist of the above would seem to be that the believers of the illusion, at least to some extent dictate what it does. The caster can, as you noted, give it directions, but if the believers see a guy with a sword and shield and they think it is going to be a fight, they get a fight, the illusion delivers on their expectations.

[JohnPaulB]

Originally Posted by warhorse11h

I think I would have to disagree with you on the autonomous actions. ITL also says, "Since illusions are in part fed by the observers, an illusion will always act as the “average” type of the thing it is. An illusion of a fighter will fight as a standard beginning fighter, with ST, DX, and IQ adding to 32. A wizard cannot create an illusion of a highly-experienced fighter unless it appears to be some powerful fighter known to the enemy. If they recognize him, they will think they are fighting that powerful hero – and in such a case, an illusion of a man might have ST of 16 and DX of 14, quite legally. Note, though: if the people who see the illusion do not recognize it, it won’t get that extra ST and DX. If they do recognize it, they may try to disbelieve!"

The gist of the above would seem to be that the believers of the illusion, at least to some extent dictate what it does. The caster can, as you noted, give it directions, but if the believers see a guy with a sword and shield and they think it is going to be a fight, they get a fight, the illusion delivers on their expectations.

So the wizard creates an average city guard and has it stand at the front gate. Joe Blo, seeing an average city guard (that is the illusion), goes up to it and asks directions to the nearest privy. So the believers of the illusion expect it to answer the question.

Either the wizard 'grabs the controls' of the illusionary guard and inserts his answer aggressively OR
The wizard's subconscious attention passively allows the illusionary guard to 'answer' drawing vaguely from the wizards memory. The wizard has a slight awareness that things are going on there, but not a lot of attention on it.

Originally Posted by Skarg

We played as a mix, where the line is sort of things the people seeing the illusion might expect based on the illusion's form (the ability to walk, fight, respond in expected ways), and things requiring some intelligence or conscious choice (which would use the wizard's consciousness, though part of knowing the Illusion spell may (must?) be training up the capacity to multi-task, at least in this way (maybe the wizard's subconscious does some of it?)).

the wizard's trained subconscious can easily answer the question, the illusion can, but it is a question of needing the wizard's mental resources to run things (and/or possibly the imagination of the people believing the illusion, but if that's the case then maybe the answer the illusion gives might not be the one the wizard would have it answer if the wizard were not busy).

OK, I got this worked out enough. Part of the training of the Illusion spell is to keep a bit of attention on the Illusion to let it do minimal expected "average" things the real thing might do, but it is affected a bit by observer expectations. Thus if Jo Blo expects an answer from the guard, the guard will give a minimal generic answer unless the wizard overrides him. If the guard is walking with the group and they turn the corner, the group expects the guard to turn the corner with them and it gets pulled along by the wizard's expecting guard to follow the group.

There are others ways to look at this topic, too. Thanks everyone.

[Helborn]

Originally Posted by warhorse11h

I think I would have to disagree with you on the autonomous actions. ITL also says, "Since illusions are in part fed by the observers, an illusion will always act as the “average” type of the thing it is. An illusion of a fighter will fight as a standard beginning fighter, with ST, DX, and IQ adding to 32. A wizard cannot create an illusion of a highly-experienced fighter unless it appears to be some powerful fighter known to the enemy. If they recognize him, they will think they are fighting that powerful hero – and in such a case, an illusion of a man might have ST of 16 and DX of 14, quite legally. Note, though: if the people who see the illusion do not recognize it, it won’t get that extra ST and DX. If they do recognize it, they may try to disbelieve!"

The gist of the above would seem to be that the believers of the illusion, at least to some extent dictate what it does. The caster can, as you noted, give it directions, but if the believers see a guy with a sword and shield and they think it is going to be a fight, they get a fight, the illusion delivers on their expectations.

I would suggest that the observers help define who/what the illusion IS while creating wizard defines what the illusion DOES. In the Wizard combat example the wizard casts no other spell after creating the illusion, while wizard summoning a wolf casts another spell before the wolf disappears.
Thus an illusion requires concentration while a summoning doesn't.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Helborn

I would suggest that the observers help define who/what the illusion IS while creating wizard defines what the illusion DOES.

Makes sense to me.

Originally Posted by Helborn

In the Wizard combat example the wizard casts no other spell after creating the illusion, while wizard summoning a wolf casts another spell before the wolf disappears.
Thus an illusion requires concentration while a summoning doesn't.

That doesn't make sense to me. In the combat example, Yzor gets injured by a magic fist and it seems to me he stops casting because he surmises that he needs to preserve his strength, which as it turns out is how he barely survives the duel. i.e. it was about ST, not concentration.

But there's nothing in the rules to prevent casting as many simultaneous illusions and other spells as you have ST for. Illusions are nicely less troublesome than creations in that they can go without maintenance for 12 turns.

The limitations are laid out it great detail - if the intention were that an illusion took ALL of a wizard's concentration to direct it and/or prevented other spellcasting, surely the rules would say so somewhere.

[hcobb]

If an evil wizard summons an illusion of yourself to fight yourself does this illusion have all of your abilities, even when striking your friends who don't know you have these abilities?

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by hcobb

If an evil wizard summons an illusion of yourself to fight yourself does this illusion have all of your abilities, even when striking your friends who don't know you have these abilities?

I wouldn't think so, because its ability to hurt them is about their belief in it.

[warhorse11h]

Originally Posted by hcobb
If an evil wizard summons an illusion of yourself to fight yourself does this illusion have all of your abilities, even when striking your friends who don't know you have these abilities?

Originally Posted by Skarg

I wouldn't think so, because its ability to hurt them is about their belief in it.

I agree, but it should be a moot point when I disbelieve in myself and the illusion vanishes.

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by warhorse11h

I agree, but it should be a moot point when I disbelieve in myself and the illusion vanishes.

Which is why all fighters are IQ 12+ so evil wizard doesn't:

ITL139: "Such a “double” may even be created in the hex occupied by the original. Either the original or the duplicate then immediately moves one hex in any direction, confusing the foe"

Leading to (say it in unison): "Is real Tharg, him phony!"

[warhorse11h]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Which is why all fighters are IQ 12+ so evil wizard doesn't:

ITL139: "Such a “double” may even be created in the hex occupied by the original. Either the original or the duplicate then immediately moves one hex in any direction, confusing the foe"

Leading to (say it in unison): "Is real Tharg, him phony!"

A wizard casting an illusion of himself wouldn't apply in the situation you stipulated above.

I believe that if confronted with this situation in a real game, where I was the GM, I would be inclined to believe that disbelief would be automatic any time that you are facing a duplicate of yourself. Even an IQ 7 fighter should be able to figure out, "I'm here, so I can't be there!"

[warhorse11h]

Of course, this discussion of absurdities has provided food for thought. What if summoned beings, which no one knows the origin of, are actually real beings from a short time in the future. When the spell ends, whether they are alive or dead, they are returned to their time at the exact second they left and are restored to their life with no memory of what has transpired. See Star Trek, "Tomorrow Is Yesterday" for an example.