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Old 01-31-2005, 09:39 AM   #31
maximara
 
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Default Re: G4e Tech Levels for Merlin, Homeline

Quote:
Originally Posted by FACM
Maximara: It's called suspension of disbelief. Get over it.
Suspension of disbelief does not excuse poor logic or planning (see DC post-Hawkworld pre-Zero Hour Hawkman for cast in point as well as Marvel's Spider Clone saga).

Given what we know about Stalin does it make sence for him to explode an atom bomb what would seem to generate an 'magic field' Antartica? No.

Does it make sence for demons to 'appear' in the Nevada Test Site when in the Technomancer Timeline there is no such place? No.

Does killing off the acting cast of The Conqueror (1956) mean that the movie industury on Merlin is going to go a different path? You bet your sweet projector it does. Valley of the Dolls (1967), Beneath the Planet of the Apes (1970), and The Man with the Golden Gun (1974) all had actors who originally starred in The Conqueror in supporting roles. Then you have people like Norman S. Powell (an uncredited mongel guard) who becamse directors and producers in their own right. Without Powell there is no "Johnny Ringo" (1959) TV Series, The Big Valley series never is made, as is the 1985 revival of "The Twilight Zone".

And yet were are told that unless otherwise stated things happened as they did in our world. This makes less sence than the White Knight in Alice through the Looking Glass. I am wonder where the play tester were on this one (And Madlands)
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Old 01-31-2005, 11:07 AM   #32
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Default Re: G4e Tech Levels for Merlin, Homeline

do your games actually revolve around the movie industry? If not, does it really matter who replaces the actors? No. Just change celebrity names and you fix that non-issue.

It's assumed that major events were the same in Merlin. If the cast of a tv show differs, again, it doesnt really matter unless the game revolves around tv shows.

or, you could just not play technomancer and write your own setting. That'd have many less logic errors and plot holes, save us your complaining, and give us a new world to play in.
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Old 01-31-2005, 02:42 PM   #33
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Default Re: G4e Tech Levels for Merlin, Homeline

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Originally Posted by FACM
or, you could just not play technomancer and write your own setting. That'd have many less logic errors and plot holes, save us your complaining, and give us a new world to play in.
Now, now, children. Play nice.

Maximara is simply pointing out logical problems with Technomancer. I, for one, am glad to hear them, as it allows me to make adjustments as necessary when and if I ever run characters through the setting.
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Old 01-31-2005, 03:54 PM   #34
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Default Re: G4e Tech Levels for Merlin, Homeline

It was a TL 6 age. In a highly funded government laboratory, the best and brightest that a nation had to offer invented a TL 7 device; it was big and crude compared to the devices that came later, but it was a nuclear bomb.

Those scientists, with their Physics/TL6, had to soak up the penalty for trying to invent a TL 7 device, and they did it. Once it had been demonstrated that these crazy theories worked, people started improving their Physics/TL7 from default, and Engineering/TL7 soon followed.

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Originally Posted by maximara
We are not going into that level of detail but the important thing is to realize that one innovation of TLy does not dump everything else into TLy. Remember that until they actually set the Gadget off the scientists were not sure what the thing was going to do. Edward Teller thought intially that it would set the atmosphere ablaze (an idea revived for the Alpha-Omega bomb in Beneath the Planet of the Apes) and Oppenheimer had plans to evacuate the southwest part New Mexico. Even after they set the Gadget there really did not understand what an atom bomb could do because moments after the test they were poking around in the still hot remnents.

So the Gadget, Little Boy, and Fat Man were more on the order of TL(6+1) than true TL7 ie a TL7 invention made with TL6 understanding. The previously mentioned movie Atomic Cafe is made up of clips and promotions of the 1950s and shows the total lack of understanding we had of atomic energy in general and atom bomb in particular. The scene where the army chaplin is saying "it (the bomb going off) is a beutiful thing to behold" while the army is marching is troops through fallout is case in point. Then you have Bert the Turtle and his advice 'When you see the flash - duck and cover' which was lampooned decades later in Bloom County as 'When you see the flash bend over and kiss your butt goodbye'. A&E's The Future that Never Happened showed an army training from c1950 where they are talking about using tactical nuclear weapons as if they were just a bigger artilery round.

The fact of the matter is the first years of the atomic age were more TL(6+1) than 'true' TL7.
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Old 01-31-2005, 05:03 PM   #35
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Default Re: G4e Tech Levels for Merlin, Homeline

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Originally Posted by maximara
The HMS Dreadnaught. As for "every other transportation technology was moving to internal combustion" THat was not true for ships. The Titanic was using steampower fules by coal and ment shoving it into a boiler and that is the tail end of the 'Steampunk' era (1914).
Well, I haven't seen the stats for the Titanic; I'm not sure she wouldn't be a 5+1, as well. But I'd gotten the impression that the Dreadnaught had some unique innovations in steam technology that weren't really seen elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by maximara
If you have watched Burke's Connections you would know that this is a poor arguement. The other seven inventions (Telecommunications, computer, assembly line, jet engine, plastics, rockets, and TV) he talks about have had as profound an effect (if not more profound) than the atom bomb did. But other then the jet engine none of these really defines TL in GURPS.
I imagine they aren't in the book mostly for space reasons. The Basic Set just picks a couple of quick examples to show technology moving forward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara
The basic Set points out that technology tends to gray from one TL to another and TL(x+Y) is one way to deal with it especialy if some key parts of the TL at the 'normal' level are missing. For example would be a good way to represent TV of the 1930's (1936 - Olympic Games and World's Fair of 1939) or Nylon (originally called Duparooh for Dupont pulls a rabbit out of a hat)
I think these are just early appearances of a later technology. As was pointed out, the edges of tech levels are blurry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara
Also remember that since atomic power behaves differently on Merlin than in OTL TL(6+1) makes perfect sence for that setting regardless of your arguements for OTL.
Now *this* I can go for. Atom bombs that create permanent banestorms are obviously an entirely different technological path from our world. ;-)
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Old 01-31-2005, 06:37 PM   #36
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Default Re: G4e Tech Levels for Merlin, Homeline

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Originally Posted by CraigR
Maximara is simply pointing out logical problems with Technomancer. I, for one, am glad to hear them, as it allows me to make adjustments as necessary when and if I ever run characters through the setting.
I'm somewhat tired of him turning every thread on Technomancer into the logical problems of Technomancer. I've heard them, I don't agree or don't care, let us discuss other aspects of Technomancer on a thread that is specifically labeled for that.
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Old 01-31-2005, 07:17 PM   #37
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Default Re: G4e Tech Levels for Merlin, Homeline

One should see the plot holes in Technomancer (and admittedly there are quite a few) as an opportunity, not a problem. Create game scenarios that explain these historical anomalies as direct or indirect effects of the Trinity event such as mind control spells, demonic influence, secret mystical agendas, Cabal infiltration (you didn't think "Sephiroth Industries" got that name by accident, did you?) etc.. It would make a great way to kick off my new Yahoo! Technomancer discussion group (shameless plug ;) ) It would do until we get to see what Infinite Worlds says about Merlin and the Cabal next month. Or at least until Friday for the Pyramid chat with Kenneth Hite about Infinity Unlimited. :)
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              @==================================================@
              | Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> |
              |      Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos      |
              |Clarkes Law, Merlin style: Any magic, sufficiently|
              | analyzed, is indistinguishable from technology.  |
              |   Captain America watched for the Bastille and   |
              |            removes the shark. FNORD!             |
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Old 01-31-2005, 07:18 PM   #38
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Default Re: G4e Tech Levels for Merlin, Homeline

Speaking of logic, just how often does the actions of world leaders follow logical patterns? Humans are not always logical or rational, sometimes we act before rational thought even has a chance.
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Old 01-31-2005, 10:04 PM   #39
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Default Re: G4e Tech Levels for Merlin, Homeline

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Originally Posted by prosfilaes
I'm somewhat tired of him turning every thread on Technomancer into the logical problems of Technomancer. I've heard them, I don't agree or don't care, let us discuss other aspects of Technomancer on a thread that is specifically labeled for that.
Except the logic holes extend to the TL so the problem is relevent to this thread. Take Hermes (the program that replaces Apollo) for example. Since a trip to the moon was all about weight one of the things NASA was working on was smaller computers so the astronauts would know where they were. A hand held item that Tells Position would do the same thing and take up less weight so why knock youself out pushing the computer which you know is going to take up more space and weight more? Create Air would elimiminate the time limits the astronauts had in OTL walking around on the moon and so on.

Also the political situation is very different with all these dictators who in OTL are dead still running around. Adding magic to any historical period is going to change the way the TL goes - the main question is how and where those changes will happen.

On a related issue comparing Fantasy 1e to 4e it looks like Magery 0 increased the number of mages by a factor of 5. (from 1:1000 in low mana Yrth to 1:200 in low mana Roma Arcana) So doesn't this also change things somewhat if we are bring Technomancer to 4e?

Last edited by maximara; 01-31-2005 at 10:24 PM.
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Old 02-01-2005, 01:23 AM   #40
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Default Re: G4e Tech Levels for Merlin, Homeline

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Originally Posted by maximara
Except the logic holes extend to the TL so the problem is relevent to this thread.
Whether or not Japan would have surrendered has absolutely nothing to do with TL.
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