Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > The Fantasy Trip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-09-2019, 02:54 AM   #41
MikMod
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

If an image can provide the wizard with new information then no party will ever be lost again. One eagle image later, and the party has a map of the surrounding area including details like a rabbit at a distance of two miles. For me, this breaks the game.
MikMod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2019, 03:34 AM   #42
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikMod View Post
If an image can provide the wizard with new information then no party will ever be lost again. One eagle image later, and the party has a map of the surrounding area including details like a rabbit at a distance of two miles. For me, this breaks the game.
I think it's important to understand that if a wizard is standing in a shadow hex or behind a wall, their creations can still fight because the wizard can see out of their eyes. Taking away this crucial aspect of creations from illusions changes the game significantly and makes it play very much unlike how it is written. Also it makes it much easier to detect illusions by observing the wizard's location.

Seeing out of an illusion's eyes has been a part of the rules since 1978, in the original Wizard game. The Shadow and Wall spells were tactically important for this arena-based game.

GMs are welcome to make house rules but in my opinion this is a detrimental change with far-reaching effects.
zot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2019, 03:43 AM   #43
MikMod
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

Quote:
Originally Posted by zot View Post
I think it's important to understand that if a wizard is standing in a shadow hex or behind a wall, their creations can still fight because the wizard can see out of their eyes. Taking away this crucial aspect of creations from illusions changes the game significantly and makes it play very much unlike how it is written. Also it makes it much easier to detect illusions by observing the wizard's location.

Seeing out of an illusion's eyes has been a part of the rules since 1978, in the original Wizard game. The Shadow and Wall spells were tactically important for this arena-based game.

GMs are welcome to make house rules but in my opinion this is a detrimental change with far-reaching effects.
Maybe it's because we play in a world setting, outdoors, in buildings etc, and almost never in 'tunnels', that this works fine/better for us. Wall and Shadow are almost never used, maybe because we are in larger spaces, forests, river crossings, on board ship etc and everyone can usually see pretty much everything that's happening. I can totally see your point above for dungeon crawls. I hope you can see mine? A world where the lowest wizard can be the perfect spy would be a catastrophic change for us.

I don't feel I'm making a house rule any more than you are to be honest.

I think SJ must have known it wasn't consistent because he says as much in ITL somewhere...

Last edited by MikMod; 07-09-2019 at 03:49 AM. Reason: Add clarity
MikMod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2019, 03:54 AM   #44
MikMod
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

Quote:
Originally Posted by zot View Post
I think it's important to understand that if a wizard is standing in a shadow hex or behind a wall, their creations can still fight because the wizard can see out of their eyes.
In my world/view, there is an interpretation of what's happening here which rests on the fact that there are other observers. The illusion is in the mind of the wizard, and others who see it. So in a way, their expectations fuel the illusions behavior - they see an enemy warrior and the fight is on - in their minds.

I'm not sure that wizards control their illusions like puppets. If that were the case then they would be pretty unable to do anything else, and the illusion would never be able to act faster or more accurately than the wizard.
MikMod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2019, 04:01 AM   #45
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikMod View Post
Maybe it's because we play in a world setting, outdoors, in buildings etc, and almost never in 'tunnels', that this works fine/better for us. Wall and Shadow are almost never used, maybe because we are in larger spaces, forests, river crossings, on board ship etc. I can totally see your point above for dungeon crawls. I hope you can see mine? A world where the lowest wizard can be the perfect spy would be a catastrophic change for us.

I don't feel I'm making a house rule any more than you are to be honest.

I think SJ must have known it wasn't consistent because he says as much in ITL somewhere...
It seems to me that the Scout spell ex explicitly made for exactly that purpose. Not as small as a mosquito but both bats and rats are very quiet and small mammals.

I don't usually do dungeon crawls, actually though, I'm just trying to clarify the rules from the perspective of having played TFT from 1977 (when Melee came out) to 1986, which is when all these issues came up for our group.

These days I usually play my own RPG which is a collaborative RPG (players trade off narration during sessions) which is heavily influenced by Blood Red Sands and Fate (it has aspects, stunts, and mantles from Fate / FAE).

I have run recent games in TFT though and in both games I have absolutely no problem with wizards who can use Illusion, Image, or Scout because my stories don't hinge on whether a character can see behind a door. They tend to depend a lot more on social interaction and information that's not so easily discovered. And when the characters discover information, it's a great thing because it's part of the story.
zot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2019, 04:20 AM   #46
MikMod
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

Quote:
Originally Posted by zot View Post
It seems to me that the Scout spell ex explicitly made for exactly that purpose. Not as small as a mosquito but both bats and rats are very quiet and small mammals.
Well exactly. If you could scout already, and in many more forms, using image or illusion then we wouldn't need this spell.
MikMod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2019, 04:28 AM   #47
MikMod
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

Quote:
Originally Posted by zot View Post
my stories don't hinge on whether a character can see behind a door.
Neither do mine, but like $50 Regeneration spells, a plethora of low level wizard spies would change the world in a pretty fundamental way.

Just consider large scale military encounters. Both sides will be extremely clear of the extent of the opposing forces. There is no hiding a unit anywhere within miles. If you can get a beetle into the commanders tent, you will have seen their actual battle plans! The impact on how the military would have to operate in conditions of common and easy spying are actually too much for me to even grasp right now.
MikMod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2019, 04:57 AM   #48
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikMod View Post
Well exactly. If you could scout already, and in many more forms, using image or illusion then we wouldn't need this spell.
There are tradeoffs: Scouts have weight and can affect physical things, like setting off traps, Images and Illusions can be smaller and non-mammal.
zot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2019, 04:57 AM   #49
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikMod View Post
Neither do mine, but like $50 Regeneration spells, a plethora of low level wizard spies would change the world in a pretty fundamental way.

Just consider large scale military encounters. Both sides will be extremely clear of the extent of the opposing forces. There is no hiding a unit anywhere within miles. If you can get a beetle into the commanders tent, you will have seen their actual battle plans! The impact on how the military would have to operate in conditions of common and easy spying are actually too much for me to even grasp right now.
The same is true for a bat or a rat using the scout spell (which is cheaper than Illusion).
zot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2019, 05:03 AM   #50
Tywyll
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Default Re: Using an Illusion's Senses

Quote:
Originally Posted by zot View Post
The second-to-bottom paragraph on the left side of p139 that starts with,
Illusions of Inanimate Objects: An illusion of fire, wall, or shadow will behave just like the real thing until it vanishes or is disbelieved. The same is true for an illusion of a hand- held weapon or a Magic Rope. Mages theorize this is true because these few inanimate objects are so often seen as illusions that they have somehow acquired extra power.
So illusions of fire, walls, shadow, hand-held weapons, and magic rope behave "just like the real thing". So illusionary fire does burn things, etc.

The rest of the paragraph goes into further explanation.
I think you are reading a lot into the idea of behaving like the real thing.

Behaving like the real thing =/= burning things. I think that all it means is that it acts exactly like the spell (causes damage, looks the same, blockes line of sight, seems to provide heat, etc). But like getting killed by an illusion, a person who 'burned to death' would be unsinged after the effect ended.
Tywyll is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:01 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.