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Old 05-24-2019, 07:08 PM   #1
Žorkell
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Default Will, what is it good for, huh?

I'm a player in an upcoming DFRPG-ish game. Anyway I chose to make a cleric, and among the info on the Cleric is the fact that you can buy Will up to 25 rather than 20. Starting template has IQ 14 and Will 14. I raised Will at first but now I'm having second thoughts as I see very little that Will is used for (apart from things that are useful to everybody). All I can see are Turning, and the skill Exorcism.

Am I missing something?
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Old 05-24-2019, 10:09 PM   #2
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Default Re: Will, what is it good for, huh?

Nope. I've never seen the point either.


If Clerics were Will based casters that would certainly be something though.

Food for thought, considering how lamented Clerics are, that might be a place to make a change and make them more viable.
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Old 05-25-2019, 02:43 AM   #3
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Default Re: Will, what is it good for, huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Žorkell View Post
I see very little that Will is used for (apart from things that are useful to everybody).
Will is my favorite secondary characteristic! (suck it, Per...)

The following probably isn't a very helpful comment, give your parenthesis up there, but I tend to think that that the best uses of Will are the things that are useful for everybody.
  • Being ridiculously good at Intimidation is always nice. Especially if that 5-pt talent also covers other useful skills, plus all the following:
  • Fright checks are pretty common in my games; when GMing I also tend to call for Will rolls in other trying circumstances on a fairly regular basis. Of course this may or may not be the case in your campaign.
  • Having amazing resistance to all sorts of spells, magical effects, etc, can also be pretty great, under the right circumstances. I think the rule of 16 makes really high Will even more attractive, at least to a certain point, since you can virtually guarantee you'll resist, even when the rest of the team is bound to fail, which can be real lifesaver for the whole team. Again, of course this depends on what your GM is throwing at you.

Anyway, it's only 5 pts a level, and I tend to think that you get quite a lot for that price. Though, yes, as you say, everyone can benefit from high Will - Clerics don't seem to get that much extra out of it. But do they need to? It already covers so much...
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Old 05-25-2019, 06:12 AM   #4
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Default Re: Will, what is it good for, huh?

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... Clerics don't seem to get that much extra out of it. But do they need to?
I think the complaint here is that Barbarians, Knights, and Scouts all have abilities that can go higher than normal maximums that fit directly into their 'main line purpose". Barbarians especially.

Bards, Clerics, Druids*, Holy Warriors*, Martial Artists, Swashbucklers, and Wizards do not.


I have toyed with making Bards Charisma casters†, Druids Animal Empathy and Green Thumb casters†, Clerics and HW Will casters†, allowing Wizard Magery to go to +12, uncapping Chi Talent and letting Thief's and Swashbuckler's DX‡ to go to 25.



* Arguably Druid's FP and HW's Will going above regular maximum is parallel to their mainline activities, so I'm almost tempted to add them into the first category.

Funny that Wizard does not go to 25 in IQ and Thief in DX, that is how it runs in DF.

† In that those Talents would add directly to their casting and magical powers, in the case of Cleric and HW they would use Will instead of IQ.

‡ Or at least giving them a 'class' talent to better boost their respective niche skills.
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Old 05-25-2019, 10:09 AM   #5
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Default Re: Will, what is it good for, huh?

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
I think the complaint here is that Barbarians, Knights, and Scouts all have abilities that can go higher than normal maximums that fit directly into their 'main line purpose". Barbarians especially.

Bards, Clerics, Druids*, Holy Warriors*, Martial Artists, Swashbucklers, and Wizards do not.


I have toyed with making Bards Charisma casters†, Druids Animal Empathy and Green Thumb casters†, Clerics and HW Will casters†, allowing Wizard Magery to go to +12, uncapping Chi Talent and letting Thief's and Swashbuckler's DX‡ to go to 25.



* Arguably Druid's FP and HW's Will going above regular maximum is parallel to their mainline activities, so I'm almost tempted to add them into the first category.

Funny that Wizard does not go to 25 in IQ and Thief in DX, that is how it runs in DF.

† In that those Talents would add directly to their casting and magical powers, in the case of Cleric and HW they would use Will instead of IQ.

‡ Or at least giving them a 'class' talent to better boost their respective niche skills.
Clerics being fanatical representatives of their gawd(s) feels like that Will is exactly inline with their mainline purpose in my opinion along with the three reasons that Joe posted.
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Old 05-25-2019, 04:12 PM   #6
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Default Re: Will, what is it good for, huh?

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Clerics being fanatical representatives...
Why must they be fanatical? Sure a high Will means they won't be swayed from their own god, but what if they are a Cleric of Lebowski? The Dude doesn't strike me as focused or even dedicated to anything in particular.
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Old 05-25-2019, 05:03 PM   #7
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Default Re: Will, what is it good for, huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
I think the complaint here is that Barbarians, Knights, and Scouts all have abilities that can go higher than normal maximums that fit directly into their 'main line purpose". Barbarians especially.

Bards, Clerics, Druids*, Holy Warriors*, Martial Artists, Swashbucklers, and Wizards do not.


I have toyed with making Bards Charisma casters†, Druids Animal Empathy and Green Thumb casters†, Clerics and HW Will casters†, allowing Wizard Magery to go to +12, uncapping Chi Talent and letting Thief's and Swashbuckler's DX‡ to go to 25.



* Arguably Druid's FP and HW's Will going above regular maximum is parallel to their mainline activities, so I'm almost tempted to add them into the first category.

Funny that Wizard does not go to 25 in IQ and Thief in DX, that is how it runs in DF.

† In that those Talents would add directly to their casting and magical powers, in the case of Cleric and HW they would use Will instead of IQ.

‡ Or at least giving them a 'class' talent to better boost their respective niche skills.
Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Why must they be fanatical? Sure a high Will means they won't be swayed from their own god, but what if they are a Cleric of Lebowski? The Dude doesn't strike me as focused or even dedicated to anything in particular.
I think you need to take a closer look at The Dude. He definitely had a certain inflexibility or Will about him even if he did dress it in a casual Baja Pullover with White Russian in hand attitude.
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Old 05-25-2019, 07:32 PM   #8
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Default Re: Will, what is it good for, huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by acmegamer View Post
Clerics being fanatical representatives of their gawd(s) feels like that Will is exactly inline with their mainline purpose in my opinion along with the three reasons that Joe posted.
If the Cleric is supposed to be a fanatical representative of their gods the disadvantage Fanaticism is right there in the disadvantage options, as is Intolerance. Neither of those disads is mandatory.

Furthermore, if we assume a fanatical representative. What does Will 25 do for him that Will 20 doesn't?
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Old 05-26-2019, 09:06 AM   #9
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Default Re: Will, what is it good for, huh?

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If the Cleric is supposed to be a fanatical representative of their gods the disadvantage Fanaticism is right there in the disadvantage options, as is Intolerance. Neither of those disads is mandatory.

Furthermore, if we assume a fanatical representative. What does Will 25 do for him that Will 20 doesn't?
I guess I shouldn't have used the term fanatic since it is used as a disadvantage and which it should be. I was using it in the way that conveys the strong will a cleric would have to drive them, good or bad.

Often when you read through all the threads here in DFRPG you'll notice a trend that some players become so focused on the individual tree they miss the greater whole of the forest.

You listed a couple advantages to having a high will initially and Joe posted a few more, in my opinion that's enough to be good enough and making it worthwhile, in other words not a waste. Kromm's design works as intended.
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Old 05-26-2019, 12:31 PM   #10
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Default Re: Will, what is it good for, huh?

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Originally Posted by acmegamer View Post
Clerics being fanatical representatives of their gawd(s) feels like that Will is exactly inline with their mainline purpose in my opinion along with the three reasons that Joe posted.
I'm coming back to this from another angle...

This is DF, not "Funny Voices Roleplaying"*. What does having a high Will do for a Cleric that is inline with his job on the team, to whit: Healing, Buffing, Niche Utility Spells, 3rd rank fighter†.

Noting how strongly the Barbarian's capacity to go to ST 25 fits his job and the Knight having a x1.5 cap on HP and Scouts capping at Per 25 fit their roles.



* Which is what a friend of mine calls your typical 'roleplaying' fantasy game rather than what DF is, which is closer to 'pointless slaying and looting', aka the 'back to the dungeon' mindset.

† If you think a Cleric's job is different from this, please elaborate!
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