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Old 12-11-2014, 12:54 PM   #41
Flyndaran
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Don't forget that if your using MA pg125: 'harsh realism', parries with hands and C reach weapon to stamps and kicks to legs are at -2.

And if your parrying with your feet you can't retreat.
....
That means that you should never parry with your legs unless it's against low kicks AND you can't retreat. That seems unlikely enough for virtually no one to ever need to learn such a thing.
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Old 12-11-2014, 12:56 PM   #42
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I think I read somewhere recently that you can lock any arm, not necessarily the one that was attacking you, but don't take my word for it.
....
Even if I punch you with my left while keeping my right behind my back? I have zero experience with any MA in real life. But I have trouble imagining how one could arm lock sans penalty an arm that never extended.
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Old 12-11-2014, 01:03 PM   #43
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
The hardest part is going to be getting into the bad guy's side hex. Assuming you are in his middle-front adjacent hex when he attacks, at best you can do a side-slip parry into his left front hex and then step into CC for the Arm Lock from there.
While at some distance, Wait, with the trigger being his completion of his Step (i.e. after his Step, before his Attack).
When he Steps moves into Reach 1 to strike (assuming a Reach 1 knife), you Feint and step into his front-left hex, and do a Feint (not a strike nor grapple).
He attacks into his left-front hex with his right hand, and you Parry with a Sideslip into his rear-left hex.
His turn ends and you are in his left-rear hex, for a -2 to his defences.
At this point your turn arrives, and you can enter Close Combat through his rear, or (if for some reason you need to) step into his rear hex instead.

This seems more useful for Judo with Choke hold (-2) or Arm Grapple (-1). Not useful with Brawling bites, it seems.

Of course, you need to successfully Parry.
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Old 12-11-2014, 01:13 PM   #44
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
A function of the Skill and not the weapon. If he uses Main Gauche (an Average Skill) he does get the Retreat bonus. Knife is like Brawling. Both are Easy skills and quick and dirty.
Great point, Fred.

All of the Knife components of my martial training would fit better with Main Gauche in that regard than with Knife.
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Old 12-11-2014, 01:26 PM   #45
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
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So if our hypothetical barely-realistic-highly-skilled martial artist has ST 13 and Karate at DX+1 at least, and he's wearing boots, he'll kick for 1d+3 cr, or an average of 6.5 points of damage.
I think targeting the leg here is much better than the face. With only a -2 to hit and a major wound on average damage, it seems like a no-brainer. You should also have some room to throw some deceptive attack in there.
If you're doing, on average, enough damage to cause a Major Wound, and don't already have a Targeted Attack technique bought, it's not immediately obvious to me that deliberately going for a TA rather than randomly rolling for hit location is a good idea. Skull, face, neck, groin, both legs, the weapon arm, and the weapon hand are all better-than-normal results, likely to end the fight more or less immediately with enough damage for a Major Wound. Torso/nonweapon arm/nonweapon hand's likelihood for stun/knockdown/disability through shock penalties means that you get to attack them again more or less risk-free, which probably ends the fight.

Deliberately targeting hit locations makes most sense when your damage isn't high enough to cause an ordinary Major Wound, but is high enough that it might Cripple something critical.

When your damage is high enough to either cause a fight-ending injury or give you a 'free hit' with stun/knockdown/disability through shock penalties, no matter where you hit, it makes most sense to use your surplus skill for something other than a Targeted Attack- like a Deceptive Attack, a Rapid Strike, or keeping skill at 16 for the critical-hit bennies.

Last edited by Toptomcat; 12-11-2014 at 04:00 PM.
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Old 12-11-2014, 01:33 PM   #46
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by Toptomcat View Post
If you're doing, on average, enough damage to cause a Major Wound, and you don't already have a Targeted Attack technique bought, it's not immediately obvious to me that deliberately going for a TA rather than randomly rolling for hit location is a good idea. Skull, face, neck, groin, both legs, the weapon arm, and the weapon hand are all better-than-normal results, likely to end the fight more or less immediately with enough damage for a Major Wound. Torso/nonweapon arm/nonweapon hand's likelihood for stun/knockdown/disability through shock penalties means that you get to attack them again more or less risk-free, which probably ends the fight.

Deliberately targeting hit locations makes most sense when your damage isn't high enough to cause a Major Wound, but is high enough that it might Cripple something critical.

When your damage is high enough to either cause a fight-ending injury or give you a 'free hit' with stun/knockdown/disability through shock penalties, no matter where you hit, it makes most sense to use your surplus skill for something other than a Targeted Attack- like a Deceptive Attack, a Rapid Strike, or keeping skill at 16 for the critical-hit bennies.
Good point. Unless the assailant has armor, High Pain Threshold or high HT, a strike to anywhere other than the torso could be a fight-ender.
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Old 12-11-2014, 01:51 PM   #47
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
Good point. Unless the assailant has armor, High Pain Threshold or high HT, a strike to anywhere other than the torso could be a fight-ender.
Even a torso hit certainly could be. If they don't pass the Knockdown check after a Major Wound, you should have no difficulty converting that to a complete win.
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Old 12-11-2014, 01:58 PM   #48
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by Toptomcat View Post
If you're doing, on average, enough damage to cause a Major Wound, it's not immediately obvious to me that deliberately going for a TA rather than randomly rolling for hit location is a good idea. Skull, face, neck, groin, both legs, the weapon arm, and the weapon hand are all better-than-normal results, likely to end the fight more or less immediately with enough damage for a Major Wound. Torso/nonweapon arm/nonweapon hand's likelihood for stun/knockdown/disability through shock penalties means that you get to attack them again more or less risk-free, which probably ends the fight.

Deliberately targeting hit locations makes most sense when your damage isn't high enough to cause an ordinary Major Wound, but is high enough that it might Cripple something critical.

When your damage is high enough to either cause a fight-ending injury or give you a 'free hit' with stun/knockdown/disability through shock penalties, no matter where you hit, it makes most sense to use your surplus skill for something other than a Targeted Attack- like a Deceptive Attack, a Rapid Strike, or keeping skill at 16 for the critical-hit bennies.
Maybe.

A normal major wound forces a HT check to avoid stunning/knock down. Even a 10 HT mook will succeed on that roll 50% of the time.

Targeting the leg means that even if the bad guy makes his HT check, you have still crippled his leg, which automatically drops him prone. At that point, life becomes a LOT easier.

If you roll to hit a random location, it's a mixed bag. If you are lucky enough to get roll a face, groin, or skull hit, then that HT check is at a -5/-10, and very likely to drop him. On the other hand, if you roll hands, arms, neck, or torso, then the HT check is at no penalty.

It's a risk, and depending on the opponent, I'd more than likely give up the -1 DA penalty to my opponent's defense and target the leg for the guaranteed knockdown.
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Old 12-11-2014, 02:13 PM   #49
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
That means that you should never parry with your legs unless it's against low kicks AND you can't retreat. That seems unlikely enough for virtually no one to ever need to learn such a thing.
Eh. Low kicks are commonplace, easy to recover from and target the most important thing a fighter has: his base. And there are plenty of times retreaying isnt possible.
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Old 12-11-2014, 03:00 PM   #50
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
A normal major wound forces a HT check to avoid stunning/knock down.
And puts them at -4 to hit you in the next turn from shock. We're already assuming that the knife-armed assailant is outmatched in skill, so this tanks their skill from 'has trouble hitting you' to 'has no real chance of hitting you'. This gives you another turn to hit them at substantially reduced risk.

Quote:
If you roll to hit a random location, it's a mixed bag. If you are lucky enough to get roll a face, groin, or skull hit, then that HT check is at a -5/-10, and very likely to drop him. On the other hand, if you roll hands, arms, neck, or torso, then the HT check is at no penalty.
If you get a weapon-hand, weapon-arm, or leg hit, you don't care about the HT roll any more: the fight's done. If you roll a neck hit, average damage puts your opponent at zero HP, and they must now roll HT vs. both knockdown/stun and, in every subsequent turn, unconciousness. If you get a nonweapon arm hit it's pretty much the same as a torso hit, so you aren't any worse off from the default.

If you get a nonweapon hand hit...then, yes, your gamble has failed and you're slightly worse off than if you'd just hit them in the torso for no penalty. While they still have to roll vs. HT for knockdown/stun, their shock penalty will be -3 rather than -4, since you can inflict at most 3 HP of damage to someone with 10 HP to cripple the hand.

This is the worst case, and it happens 2.3% of the time.

So 62% chance of a better-than-torso/fight-ending shot, 35.7% chance of a torso-equivalent/nearly fight-ending shot, and 2.3% of a worse than torso-equivalent/possibly fight-ending shot on a hit, compared to a 100% chance of a better-than-torso/fight-ending shot for the TA to the leg. On a hit.

Thing is, an assailant with Knife 10-14 will have a retreating parry right in the middle of the bell curve- the 9-11 range. This is where a single point of Deceptive Attack makes a fairly sizable difference in parry rates.

I suppose I can see why someone would make your gamble, trading a modestly higher chance to end a single fight-ending hit for a rather substantial increase in the chance of being parried. But the shock penalties for even a lesser hit will be really significant to a low-skilled combatant, and getting an unarmed attack parried with a blade is dangerous.
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