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Old 10-21-2013, 09:34 PM   #1
Seneschal
 
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Default [MA] Technical Grappling Example - Wrestler vs. Three Swordsmen

I just had my first test-drive of the Technical Grappling rules, and I figured I'd log the encounter (it was played out in MapTools) and post it here. I find hands-on examples like these (e.g. the Spaceships combat examples that were on these boards a while ago - those were great) to be both instructive and entertaining, like listening to a boxing match over the radio. I don't have a blog on which to put this, so I hope nobody minds if I put it here. Sorry for the long-form. :P

The Campaign
The characters used in this encounter are from a (very) cinematic JRPG-inspired fantasy campaign. It allows Chambara rules, cinematic Extra Effort options, exotic advantages - the whole shebang. Player characters are built on 250 points. However, for our first time using Technical Grappling, we opted for vanilla rules, with no cinematic switches.

The Combatants
The player character, let's call him Yu, is a 250-point wrestler and yogi/esoteric medicine master. He has ST 10, DX 14, and HT 13. Other relevant advantages include Extra Attack (Single Skill, Wrestling), Lifting ST+8 (Costs 1 FP) and DR 10 (Costs 1 FP; Tough Skin). His Wrestling skill is at DX+4, or 18, which gives him a Training Bonus of +3. Yu's fictional wrestling style mostly uses legs (the arms are held in prayer, to activate his special powers), and grappling from weird postures. He's proficient in Force Posture Change, Ground Fighting, Low Fighting, Fighting While Seated, Scissors Hold, Triangle Choke and Arm Locks. His disadvantages include Vow (Always Fight Unarmed) and Pacifism (Cannot Kill), so he will avoid lethal techniques.

His opponents, Goona, Goonb and Goonc, are carbon-copies of each-other, and have ST 12, DX 12, HT 12, Broadsword-14 and Judo-14. They are armed with broadswords.

The Encounter
The four combatants are in a circular, arena elevated over a steep precipice. To win, all of one's opponents must be either dead, or unable to continue.


Turn 1
Due to his Basic Speed 7, Yu goes first. He activates his Lifting ST and DR advantages, grows muscles, shreds his clothing, flexes and goes "boo." He loses 2 FP and his Trained ST is raised from 13 to 21.

On their turn, the three goons move to encircle the wrestler. Goonb and Goonc are now in his side arcs; Goona is charging for him.


Turn 2
Yu chooses Wait, preparing to do a Scissors Hold if someone comes within Reach 1 of him.

Goona charges Yu with a Move & Attack, activating his Wait. Yu slides down to her feet and tries to trap her left leg between his own. He has Scissors Hold-18, so he does a Deceptive Attack, lowering his skill to 14 and Goona's defenses by 2. He rolls a 5 (not a critical, since his effective skill has fallen below 15), and Goona fails her Dodge. Yu rolls Control Points for his two legs (Grip ST 22 + 3 Training Bonus = ST 25) and inflicts 4 CP. Goona suffers a -1 penalty to DX and ST from referred control, or -2 from active control when using the grappled leg. Since she is standing and has only one free leg, her posture is unstable.

Because he has Extra Attack (Wrestling), Yu now does a Force Posture Change to knock Goona to the ground. He rolls vs. his ST for two legs (25), at a -4 penalty to drop a foe three posture levels (standing to lying down), at a +1 from the Ground Guard perk, for a total of 22. Goona resists with her Judo skill, at a -1 penalty for referred control, a total of 13. She loses and falls down face-up. The GM judges that her new posture and referred control penalties drop her weapon skill below the possibility of success, so she loses her attack. She and Yu are lying down in supine outstretched postures, in an L-shape, with their legs in close combat.

Note: The way this plays out, I cannot help but notice that Scissors Hold provides almost no benefit. In the old system, it gave +3 to subsequent takedown attempts and a cumulative -1 penalty to attempts to break free. Here, it seems to be just a Targeted Attack (Leg Grapple/Legs).

Goonc charges Yu from the side, doing a Move & Attack and succeeding. Yu attempts a Grabbing Parry to catch the blade - he has bought off the -3 to parry weapons with Wrestling, but he still suffers -3 against armed opponents, -2 for attacks from the side, and -1 for lying down (the highest Ground Fighting allows). His parry is 6 - he rolls an 11, fails, and the sword hits his arm. However, it is completely absorbed by his mystical Damage Reduction.

Note 1: Here is where a smartass thinks-he's-too-good-for-weapons martial artist would get his just returns...if this were a realistic campaign. The GM admitted that the goons would only be able to deal damage by AoA (Strong) and through Blunt Trauma. In the campaign proper, notable enemies would have Weapon Master (Humongous JRPG Katana) and shoot lightning bolts, but not these guys. Still, we decided to continue, just to familiarize ourselves with the TG moves.
Note 2: Facing rules become unclear from a supine posture. The "rear", where no defenses are allowed, is presumably facing the ground, and even if an attack comes from behind, overhead, a supine fighter might intercept it, since it is directed at his front, only upside-down. We decided to treat this as a side attack.

Goonb closes within 1 yard of Yu and does an All-Out Defense.


Turn 3
Yu steps into close combat with Goona, trying to grapple her sword-arm with his two arms. He has skill-18, -1 for posture (Ground Fighting is not at full skill), -1 for hit location, -2 for Deceptive Attack, for a total of 14. He rolls a 4, and Goona gets no defense - Yu's rolls CP for ST 21, doubled for critical - 9 CP to the arm. She now suffers (9+4)/4=3.25, or -3 referred control penalties. For his second attack, he tries to apply an arm lock - skill 18, -1 for Ground Fighting, -2 for Deceptive Attack, for a total of 15. She resists with Dodge, at -3 for posture and -1 for the DX penalties. She fails; her weapon arm is locked, and gets a further 5 CP. The referred penalties increase to (14+4)/4=4.5, or -5 to DX and ST.

On her own turn, Goona attacks to break free, and rolls a critical. Since she only uses her free arm, her Grip ST is halved, and at a further -5 from referred control. She manages to shave off 2 CP from her locked arm, reducing the CP tally there to 12. The referred penalties drop to (12+4)/4= -4 to DX and ST.

Goonc attacks with his sword again; this time, Yu tries a normal Dodge, at -1 penalty from posture, for a total of 10. He succeeds, and dodges the sword blow.

Goonb steps behind Yu and does and AoA (Strong) with his sword. He deals 10 damage, insufficient to pierce Yu's damage resistance, but enough to inflict 1 blunt trauma damage.

Note: Since Yu moved into close combat to do the arm lock, and he couldn't remain supine unless he slipped under her, the GM ruled that he exposed his back to attack. Mostly, it was to give the poor goons a slack.


Turn 4
Yu begins his turn by causing injury through the arm lock as a free action. He spends 5 CP to raise his damage cap to 10, and rolls vs. his Trained ST 22 (21 for both arms, +1 from Ground Guard). Goona defends with her HT, as it's the only one that cannot be reduced below 12. She, naturally, loses, suffers 10 damage to her arm (capped at 1/2 HP), crippling, dropping the sword, major injury, HT roll to avoid stunning or knockdown, etc. She's out of the fight, at least imminently, so Yu releases all his grapples on her.

For his first attack, Yu rolls back, does a handstand and drops his legs onto Goonb's neck, who attacked him last turn from behind. The GM likes the move, so he allows it as an Acrobatic Triangle Choke. Yu rolls vs. Triangle Choke-16, at -1 for shock penalty, -1 for posture, for a total of 14. Goonb doesn't get to defend, as his neck is grappled. Yu rolls 9 CP to the neck, so Goonb has a -4 active control penalty to the neck and a -2 referred penalty everywhere else.

For his second attack, he performs a Force Posture Change with both legs, at ST 25, -4 for bringing the opponent from standing to lying, -4 for raising himself from lying to kneeling and +1 from Ground Guard, for a total of 18. Goonb resists with Judo-14, at -4 for referred penalty to Whole-Body Actions, for a total of 10. He fails, falls down face-up, with Yu kneeling over his head.

Note: I think we did the Whole-Body thing correctly. If this is calculated as 9 CP (neck) + 4 referred CP (head) + 4 referred CP (torso) = 17/4 = 4.25, then we got it right. But Whole-Body penalties have a very short and not very clear description in TG.

Goonc now steps in front of Yu and does a Committed sword swing. Yu opts for a Grabbing Parry again, but this time spends 1 FP for Feverish Defense, giving him +2 to defense, for a total of 12. He succeeds by 3, negating 3 damage and absorbing the leftover 4 damage into his DR. He also inflicts ST×0.5 CP to the sword, and rolls 1 CP.

Goonb, his head trapped between Yu's knees, opts for a head-butt to the groin, and the GM allows it because it sounds fun, simultaneously stating that Yu only has DR 2 on his groin. Goonb hits (miraculously), but due to his low ST (9 CP on his neck), he doesn't penetrate Yu's DR, and bounces off his steel balls.

Continued in post #2...
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Old 10-21-2013, 09:35 PM   #2
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Default Re: [MA] Technical Grappling Example - Wrestler vs. Three Swordsmen

Turn 5
Yu begins his turn with Goonb in a triangle choke, and grappling Goonc's sword with his hands. He first chokes Goonb as a free action, rolling his ST (25 with two legs) vs. his enemy's HP; he spends 2 CP and inflicts 2 FP of damage through a carotid choke. There are 7 CP left on Goonb's neck. Yu then opts for an untrained Snap Weapon, at ST-4 (i.e. ST 17 with two arms) vs. the sword's HT of 12. He wins, but only deals 3 damage to the sword. For his second attack, he tries again, succeeds, and deals 9 damage to the sword - the weapon fails its HT roll and snaps in two.

Goonc tosses his ruined sword, steps into close combat and rolls a Brawling punch to the face, hitting. Yu again does a Grabbing Parry, this time at -2 for parrying a hand, for Parry-11. He succeeds, and inflicts 4 CP on Goonc's hand.

Goonb attacks to break free using all his limbs, at Judo-14, -4 for posture and -2 referred penalties. He succeeds critically, and Yu gets no defense. Goonb rolls CP for ST×1.5 for using both legs and both arms, and doubles it, scoring 7 CP and freeing himself.


Turn 6
Yu opts for an All-Out Attack (Double) (a total of 3 attacks, with Extra Attack) on Goonc, whom he is currently grappling by the hand: first, he Feints at skill-20, lowering Goonc's defense by 11; then, he applies a wrist lock at skill-18, almost unopposed, and scores another 4 CP on the hand. Finally, he executes a Throw From Lock at skill-18, opposed by Goonc's Judo-12 (14 - 2 for referred Whole-Body Actions penalty), succeeds, and deals swing crushing damage on the enemy's wrist, spending all CP and releasing the grapple afterwards.

__________________________________________________ _______________


The last guy capitulates afterwards, and the whole thing is pretty much over.
TL;DR Version: You can survive against three swordsmen too! ... If you have magical skin harder than steel plate, and grapple like an ogre.

Both mine and my GM's conclusion was ecstatic - TG is very rich and detailed, yet allows enough wiggle-room to make moves and situations circumstantial and open to interpretation. Several times, whether a move could be executed depended on whether the GM judged it to be achievable from a certain position or posture in relation to the enemy. It's certainly more involved, slightly longer, and requires more bookkeeping, but not by a lot.
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Old 10-21-2013, 10:15 PM   #3
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Default Re: [MA] Technical Grappling Example - Wrestler vs. Three Swordsmen

not tonight, but I'll give a detailed response.

One thing - if you have raw ST 21 and use you legs, you should get +20% to ST,or +4. That's ST 25, +3 for Wrestling, for ST 28 (!!). that's 3d-1 CP, average 9, range 2-17. 4 CP from that initial leg grapple is a crappy roll!

Also, the "unstable" thing means CP spent to cause takedowns and whatnot are doubled. You spent no points, so you get no benefit - you didn't need it, because your trained ST is so high.

Had you spent some, you could have really dropped the foe's roll down,even 4 CP would be -8 to the roll if you spent them all.

How did you step into CC while lying down? :-)
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:27 AM   #4
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Default Re: [MA] Technical Grappling Example - Wrestler vs. Three Swordsmen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seneschal View Post
Turn 1
Due to his Basic Speed 7, Yu goes first. He activates his Lifting ST and DR advantages, grows muscles, shreds his clothing, flexes and goes "boo." He loses 2 FP and his Trained ST is raised from 13 to 21.
Trained ST 21 is 2d CP, which is a nice, healthy, bone-crushing total. Expectation for a grapple is 7 CP (2d), where a leg grapple will be Trained ST 28 (21 * 1.2 +3) for 3d-1 (!).

Quote:
Turn 2
Yu chooses Wait, preparing to do a Scissors Hold if someone comes within Reach 1 of him.

Goona charges Yu with a Move & Attack, activating his Wait. Yu slides down to her feet and tries to trap her left leg between his own. He has Scissors Hold-18, so he does a Deceptive Attack, lowering his skill to 14 and Goona's defenses by 2. He rolls a 5 (not a critical, since his effective skill has fallen below 15), and Goona fails her Dodge.
There's a good, active debate about how far to lower Deceptive Attack, and this example shows why lowering to 16 rather than 14 can play well!


Quote:
Yu rolls Control Points for his two legs (Grip ST 22 + 3 Training Bonus = ST 25)
ST 28!

Quote:
and inflicts 4 CP. Goona suffers a -1 penalty to DX and ST from referred control, or -2 from active control when using the grappled leg. Since she is standing and has only one free leg, her posture is unstable.

Because he has Extra Attack (Wrestling), Yu now does a Force Posture Change to knock Goona to the ground. He rolls vs. his ST for two legs (25), at a -4 penalty to drop a foe three posture levels (standing to lying down), at a +1 from the Ground Guard perk, for a total of 22. Goona resists with her Judo skill, at a -1 penalty for referred control, a total of 13. She loses and falls down face-up.
Had Yu spent any CP, it would have lowered Goona's roll even more, which is where instability comes in.

Quote:
The GM judges that her new posture and referred control penalties drop her weapon skill below the possibility of success, so she loses her attack.
I think that this is reasonable. Prone (-4), Referred Control (-1), and attacking into the side arc as a Wild Swing (-5) is a whopping -10. Those face-down postures suck.

Quote:
She and Yu are lying down in supine outstretched postures, in an L-shape, with their legs in close combat.

Note: The way this plays out, I cannot help but notice that Scissors Hold provides almost no benefit. In the old system, it gave +3 to subsequent takedown attempts and a cumulative -1 penalty to attempts to break free. Here, it seems to be just a Targeted Attack (Leg Grapple/Legs).
Well, it keeps your vital torso out of your foe's reach, allows you to slam them face down for -9 penalties minimum . . . seems like that's pretty good! It also gives you that 20% ST boost (using the legs). Against foes that are no so overmatched that you can ignore them, being able to spend CP and have it count double can be a real benefit.

Quote:
. . . and -1 for lying down (the highest Ground Fighting allows).
I think you can buy this off even further if you use Technique Mastery (Ground Fighting), but that's a judgement call.

Quote:
Note 2: Facing rules become unclear from a supine posture. The "rear", where no defenses are allowed, is presumably facing the ground, and even if an attack comes from behind, overhead, a supine fighter might intercept it, since it is directed at his front, only upside-down. We decided to treat this as a side attack.
Personally, I'd call this the FRONT arc, and let the posture penalties (-4 to attack, -3 to defend) speak for themselves. It would give a good reason for all those BJJ fighters to prefer laying on their back if they've bought off Ground Fighting - all attacks are from the front, if you are willing to lay on your back in the middle of furious combat!

Quote:
Turn 3
Yu steps into close combat with Goona, trying to grapple her sword-arm with his two arms.
She has to get up first, eh? Hrm. Guess not - you have a flat move 1 by belly-crawl or roll, so you can do it. Interesting.

Quote:
He has skill-18, -1 for posture (Ground Fighting is not at full skill), -1 for hit location, -2 for Deceptive Attack, for a total of 14. He rolls a 4, and Goona gets no defense - Yu's rolls CP for ST 21, doubled for critical - 9 CP to the arm.
Again, a low roll. Grappling with the arms for 2d and doubling should result in (a) an even number, and (b) an average of 14 CP.

Quote:
On her own turn, Goona attacks to break free, and rolls a critical. Since she only uses her free arm, her Grip ST is halved, and at a further -5 from referred control. She manages to shave off 2 CP from her locked arm, reducing the CP tally there to 12. The referred penalties drop to (12+4)/4= -4 to DX and ST.
Why only use the free arm? Definitely try and break free with both arms, and in a lock, Committed (Strong) would make sense too. The successful Break Free unlocks the arm (of course, Yu will just re-lock him up).

Quote:
Goonc attacks with his sword again; this time, Yu tries a normal Dodge, at -1 penalty from posture, for a total of 10. He succeeds, and dodges the sword blow.
I think (I'm in a hurry, as I'm gong to be late for work) that Yu's dodge is penalized by his OWN CP, since he can't maintain a grip with full mobility. Need to check that. Dodge is penalized from your own grapples unless you let go. (Unless we nixed that in playtest as too complicated).


Quote:
For his first attack, Yu rolls back, does a handstand and drops his legs onto Goonb's neck, who attacked him last turn from behind. The GM likes the move, so he allows it as an Acrobatic Triangle Choke.
I and Black Widow approve!

Quote:
Yu rolls vs. Triangle Choke-16, at -1 for shock penalty, -1 for posture, for a total of 14. Goonb doesn't get to defend, as his neck is grappled. Yu rolls 9 CP to the neck, so Goonb has a -4 active control penalty to the neck and a -2 referred penalty everywhere else.
Why doesn't Goonb get to defend? I missed something there. You always get a chance to defend against a grapple . . . did Goonb AoA last turn?

Quote:
For his second attack, he performs a Force Posture Change with both legs, at ST 25, -4 for bringing the opponent from standing to lying, -4 for raising himself from lying to kneeling
-4 would be lying to standing; lying to kneeling is -2.

Quote:
and +1 from Ground Guard, for a total of 18. Goonb resists with Judo-14, at -4 for referred penalty to Whole-Body Actions, for a total of 10. He fails, falls down face-up, with Yu kneeling over his head.

Note: I think we did the Whole-Body thing correctly. If this is calculated as 9 CP (neck) + 4 referred CP (head) + 4 referred CP (torso) = 17/4 = 4.25, then we got it right. But Whole-Body penalties have a very short and not very clear description in TG.
FWIW, I agree. That goes by fast, and it can be complicated in play. I'm working on a spreadsheet to automate it.

Quote:
Goonc now steps in front of Yu and does a Committed sword swing. Yu opts for a Grabbing Parry again, but this time spends 1 FP for Feverish Defense, giving him +2 to defense, for a total of 12. He succeeds by 3, negating 3 damage and absorbing the leftover 4 damage into his DR. He also inflicts ST×0.5 CP to the sword, and rolls 1 CP.
Boy Yu's rolls sucked this game. STx0.5 should be ST 10, for 1d-2. 1 CP is OK here, but still, low rolls!
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Old 10-22-2013, 02:49 PM   #5
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Default Re: [MA] Technical Grappling Example - Wrestler vs. Three Swordsmen

Thanks for the feedback! The reason for the low CP rolls is that we're using this unarmed damage table; our GM thinks it makes the game more cinematic/gamey if swing damage isn't gigantic. I even thought I'd suggest the "thr = ST/20, sw = ST/10" rule, but it seemed a little too much. The point is to allow highly-skilled, cinematic characters to still wail on each-other like they do in a game. But, perhaps this shouldn't apply to grappling in the same way - if we go for reduced damage, should we also go for the "double CP" switch?

I still don't see how legs give ST 28. ST + Lifting ST (in Yu's case, 10 + 8) are multiplied by Grip ST (×1.2) before adding the Training Bonus (+3). So, 18+3 for two arms, 22+3 for two legs. Right?

Quote:
Why only use the free arm? Definitely try and break free with both arms, and in a lock, Committed (Strong) would make sense too. The successful Break Free unlocks the arm (of course, Yu will just re-lock him up).
So, Breaking Free can use any free or grappled limbs? I assume not the limbs caught in another grapple. But which ST do you use then? If one arm is grappled and one is free, the grappled one has double the ST penalty. Do you use the worst penalty?

Technique Mastery (Ground Fighting) sounds great, I should have thought of that before. And I like the judgement call that all attacks are from the front if you're lying face-up - it makes wrestlers and ground-fighters more effective against multiple opponents.

Quote:
I think (I'm in a hurry, as I'm gong to be late for work) that Yu's dodge is penalized by his OWN CP, since he can't maintain a grip with full mobility. Need to check that. Dodge is penalized from your own grapples unless you let go. (Unless we nixed that in playtest as too complicated).
It's a good rule. I can't imagine maintaining CP is easy when you have to weave and bob with your torso, dodging blows. And since Dodging is a whole-body action, it would have lesser penalties if you only grappled with one limb, and much higher if you use both arms and legs. I haven't read anything like that in TG, thought it sounds like an easy-to-overlook rule.
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Old 10-22-2013, 06:35 PM   #6
DouglasCole
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Default Re: [MA] Technical Grappling Example - Wrestler vs. Three Swordsmen

OK, I understand where the low CP totals come from. If y'all are willing to spend the time racking up CP, booyah.

I double-counted the ST, which is how I got to 28. I went 21 * 1.2 +3 instead of 18* 1.2 = 21, +3 for legs is 24. So Trained ST 18 for two arms, 24 for two legs.

Breaking free does get a bit of a, well, break. It's usually done pretty aggressively, and so yes, you can use any ungrappled or grappled limb to do it. But don't forget, it' an attack, so any limbs used to break free can't be used to maintain stability. If you're on the ground on your back, you may absolutely use any available limbs - I've done this myself.

As far as penalized arms, you can probably just cheat and say if you are ST 12 with one arm grappled for -3 to ST, just subtract it from the total. It would be a lot like two ST 5 arms making ST 10, so a ST 3 and a ST 5 arm is ST 8, which is just hitting the overall ST with the same -2 penalty.

Combining that with one or more legs, with penalties, suggests using the combining BL rules, and so the ST 8 arms (penalized) would combine with the ST 14 legs (12*1.2) as sqrt (8^2 + 14^2)
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Old 10-25-2013, 03:13 AM   #7
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Default Re: [MA] Technical Grappling Example - Wrestler vs. Three Swordsmen

Thanks, Seneschal. I'm still "wrestling" with the implications of the TG rules myself, and examples like this are helpful. -GEF
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Old 04-28-2017, 07:39 AM   #8
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Default Re: [MA] Technical Grappling Example - Wrestler vs. Three Swordsmen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellboy View Post
I was reading this now and also got very confused at this point. Maybe the hero had an ally he forgot to mention already doing a standing grapple? I thought the handstand scissoring was the initial grapple, so impeding defense would only happen once it succeeded, which requires bypassing an initial defense.
Uuuh, can't help you there, this happened years ago. I know it was part of our long-running JRPG campaign, and that's a fairly light-hearted affair. The GM is very rule-of-cool-friendly and often has mooks stand around helplessly, waiting to be dispatched.

Edit: Oh, got it, GoonB is the one that AoAed Yu's back to deal 1 blunt trauma damage. Yu dispatched A as a free action, then handstand-grappled him.

Last edited by Seneschal; 04-28-2017 at 08:57 AM.
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