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Old 08-22-2006, 11:29 AM   #41
Oggsmash
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Default Re: Very Fit and Extra Effort in combat

Ahhh sprint intervals, Conditioning drills and the like are NOT modeled well by Gurps combat rounds. Even a desk jockey can give you 30 seconds on pads in an interval drill.

i used sparring because it is an easy place to see some of the in shape people get worn out until their relaxation/skill set lines back up with their physical condition. And yes moreso in BJJ than Thai I have seen some people push to collapse, vomit more common but have seen a couple fall out in 8 years.

And for fitness being a factor, I dont need a reminder after the 1 year Hiatus I have enjoyed, my whole body aches since starting back training every day this past Saturday.
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Old 08-22-2006, 11:34 AM   #42
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Default Re: Very Fit and Extra Effort in combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luther
As written, Feverish Defenses is the most unrealistic bit of Extra Effort. How in the world can you get +7 to Dodge by All-out-Defending, Retreating and using Feverish Defense???
Hm. True, but then, how dificult it is to dodge when you worry about nothing but defense, get as far away as possible from your attacker and use every bit of effort you have? Remember, this tactic will wear off real soon... in about 7 seconds the average person will be exhausted and dodge will drop to half. This is also assuming that there are 7 yards of space behind them and their foe is using single-minded straight forward slashes or thrusts... and only one attack from only one oponent. If he uses any slightly intricate tactic, such as a simple feint or deceptive strike the who +7 comes down crashing.
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Old 08-22-2006, 11:40 AM   #43
Ciaran
 
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Default Re: Very Fit and Extra Effort in combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oggsmash
Ahhh sprint intervals, Conditioning drills and the like are NOT modeled well by Gurps combat rounds. Even a desk jockey can give you 30 seconds on pads in an interval drill.

i used sparring because it is an easy place to see some of the in shape people get worn out until their relaxation/skill set lines back up with their physical condition. And yes moreso in BJJ than Thai I have seen some people push to collapse, vomit more common but have seen a couple fall out in 8 years.

And for fitness being a factor, I dont need a reminder after the 1 year Hiatus I have enjoyed, my whole body aches since starting back training every day this past Saturday.
Training isn't combat? You don't say ;)....

You're right about the desk jockey/out of shape guy being able to give you maybe one interval. But a second and a third? Maybe not so much. Again, this is probably best modeled by giving the in shape guy extra FP than anything else.
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Old 08-22-2006, 11:43 AM   #44
mcv
 
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Default Re: Very Fit and Extra Effort in combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
Not really. Consider: You're Joe Average. You fight Mr. Experienced for 10 seconds -- hardly impossible in reality. You last this long by doing nothing but a dodge at 8, +3 for a retreat, +2 for All-Out Defense, and another +2 for Feverish Defense, for a 15 to counteract his Deceptive Attacks and Feints. You use up 10 FP in the process. You're Joe Average, so you have 10 FP. You then pass out. How is that realistic?

Or consider: You're desperately trying to get through a door. Your initial kicks and shoulder blocks don't budge it. So you go for Mighty Blows. After a mere 10 seconds of hitting the door, you collapse in exhaustion, unconscious.
The problem here isn't the extra effort, it's the falling unconcious. You shouldn't be allowed to keep spending FP until you fall unconcious, unless you have obsolutely no choice (like hwne you're drowning). So after 9 seconds Joe Average is exhausted, and Mr. Experienced finally starts kicking the crap out of him.

Quote:
This stuff isn't realistic and wasn't meant to be. It's purely cinematic, designed for those "more all-out than All-Out" moments that you see in the movies.
Maybe the implementation isn't realistic, but the principle is. I know from experience that you can attack just a little bit faster and dodge just a little bit further with some extra effort, but you do get exhausted sooner.

Also, when your FP start dropping, I think you should get penalties to your skill rolls. Is this in the extra effort rules? I don't know the rules that well, but I think it should be.

Quote:
The FP cost serves the same purpose as the character-point cost for Influencing Success Rolls (p. B347): a control on overuse of the rule to the point where it's no longer dramatic or heroic, just munchkin. It has zero connection to real-world energy depletion. In the real world, a human can't burn energy fast enough to pass out in 10 seconds! That requires a choke or something.
But that's a problem with the implementation of the rule. A human can exhaust himself in 10 seconds. It's just the passing out that's silly.


mcv.

Last edited by mcv; 08-22-2006 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 08-22-2006, 12:17 PM   #45
Ze'Manel Cunha
 
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Default Re: Very Fit and Extra Effort in combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
Not really. Consider: You're Joe Average. You fight Mr. Experienced for 10 seconds -- hardly impossible in reality. You last this long by doing nothing but a dodge at 8, +3 for a retreat, +2 for All-Out Defense, and another +2 for Feverish Defense, for a 15 to counteract his Deceptive Attacks and Feints. You use up 10 FP in the process. You're Joe Average, so you have 10 FP. You then pass out. How is that realistic?
That's not, but the problem isn't the concept of extra effort in combat, which is mostly valid, the problem is how FP is badly abstracted into a faster healing version of HP instead actually trying to model anytype of realistic "Fatigue" stat.
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Old 08-22-2006, 12:38 PM   #46
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Default Re: Very Fit and Extra Effort in combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha
That's not, but the problem isn't the concept of extra effort in combat, which is mostly valid, the problem is how FP is badly abstracted into a faster healing version of HP instead actually trying to model anytype of realistic "Fatigue" stat.
I don't think there's anything wrong with that model at all. It's how fatigue works in real life. You can spend it very quickly, but recover it relatively quickly too.
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Old 08-22-2006, 02:29 PM   #47
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Default Re: Very Fit and Extra Effort in combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaran
I don't think there's anything wrong with that model at all. It's how fatigue works in real life. You can spend it very quickly, but recover it relatively quickly too.
People, you seem to be messing aerobic and anaerobic energy reserves. Humans can dish out lots of energy through Creatin-Phosphate (English spelling? Креатин-фосфат), for a few seconds, or give out little by little by burning fat and using lots of oxygen (there are also intermediate mechanisms...). Energy spent on Combat extra effort should be replenished relatively quickly (no more than 3-6 minutes total, for a veteran fighter). Oh, and there does exist such a separate thing as anaerobic endurance. It's hard to train, but it does indeed make short bursts easier... probably not on the 2-6 second scale, but above 6 seconds, it should work.
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Old 08-22-2006, 02:47 PM   #48
Oggsmash
 
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Default Re: Very Fit and Extra Effort in combat

Quote:
Training isn't combat? You don't say ;)....

You're right about the desk jockey/out of shape guy being able to give you maybe one interval. But a second and a third? Maybe not so much. Again, this is probably best modeled by giving the in shape guy extra FP than anything else.

Meaning a training exercise using extra effort cant use gurps 1 second combat rounds. You brought that up as an example of the limitations of very fit vs extra effort in combat. In a training exercise I would give a FP cost based on the length of the drill and a Very fit person would cut the cost in half. So actually for an interval drill Very fit would model very well in terms of cutting the cost of doing the drill (say 4fp) in half.

And yeah the desk jockey is going to give me a second and third drill, it just wont look anything like the first, lol.
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Old 08-22-2006, 03:17 PM   #49
Ze'Manel Cunha
 
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Default Re: Very Fit and Extra Effort in combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaran
I don't think there's anything wrong with that model at all. It's how fatigue works in real life. You can spend it very quickly, but recover it relatively quickly too.
But in Gurps you can't recover fatigue relatively quickly, it takes ages to get your fatigue back, which is completely unrealistic.
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Old 08-22-2006, 03:30 PM   #50
Kromm
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Default Re: Very Fit and Extra Effort in combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha
But in Gurps you can't recover fatigue relatively quickly, it takes ages to get your fatigue back, which is completely unrealistic.
A trained jock with Fit and Breath Control (which in 4e is the totally realistic skill of pacing yourself) can get back 1 FP per minute (1 per 2 minutes with Breath Control, doubled for Fit). Okay, that's more like 10 minutes than 3-6 minutes, but it's the right general order . . . if we're comparing 1 minute, 10 minutes, 1 hour, etc., 10 minutes comes closest.
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