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Old 12-16-2014, 01:05 PM   #141
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
For a Long Knife (the longest thing that seems to be implied under 'knife'), that's 1d-1 cut or 1d-2 imp, which is at most 7 injury on a cut or 8 on an impale. Which is certainly nasty, but, very importantly, is a pure torso hit, not Vitals or Limb. Under more likely rolls, you get 3-5 injury on a cut and 2-4 on an impale, which is about manageable with a good application of First Aid at TL8.
If the knife masses less than 1.42lbs, the parry auto-fails, so there's no Knife roll to injure the slammer at all.
I should probably clarify that I did not mean that this idea does not make good sense in terms of game mechanics so much as, "Kids, do not do this at home, IRL (unless the guy with the knife is facing exactly away from you and doesn't know you're there, and/or you possess a superhuman ability to instantly calculate this kind of odds, in which case totally totally do it)."

Last edited by Gold & Appel Inc; 12-16-2014 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 12-17-2014, 01:34 AM   #142
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Here's another risky but potentially rewarding idea for those who lack fancy skills (specifically, if your skills are Brawling or Sumo):
Slam

Initiate the slam when you're standing in an adjacent hex to the opponent. Move one hex forward, and perform a Mighty Blow against the enemy. (HP 10 Move 1)/100 = 0.1, which is 1d-3, plus two for a Mighty Blow, plus one or two for Brawling or Sumo. So 1d or 1d+1. Opponent of up to HP25 will roll 1d-3.

If you score a hit, the opponent may Dodge or Parry. If he Parries, your slam counts as a 10-pound weapon against the flimsy 1lbs knife, which is 6 times heavier, for a 5-in-6 chance of it breaking; auto-break against a cheap or lighter knife, and the parry doesn't count at all. So if you get damaged on a parry, you take damage once and likely disarm the opponent.
If you were Dodged, you just ran past, going out of range of the opponent, who will either have another go, or go for a highly-mobile attack.

If you scored a hit that was not defended against, you now roll your 1d against his 1d-3. You have a 18/36 (50%) chance of automatically knocking down the opponent, 11/36 (30%) chance of forcing a DX-or-fall roll (likely half of those 30% result in him falling, assuming DX10 and even ground), and a mere 1/36 (3%) chance to fall yourself.
If you have Sumo, you roll 1d+1, and your chances are even better, and you won't fall.
At this point, the opponent is grounded, for a -4 to his DX rolls and -3 to defences. Chances of getting hit for you are minimised, so you can do your further unarmed actions more safely. If you've got Ground Fighting, consider tacking methods below.

----
.
Certainly by the rules that's a good tactic! System wise it's a nasty combination of variable damage (taking into account its hard to pick up speed in 1 yard) and set bonuses. (1d-3 is an average of 0.5 damage adding a set +3 is adding +600% effect)*, But it's hardly alone in the system for that, (see the thread about ST4 cats with doing high brawling and AoA(S) we just had)!



*sorry I used to play rugby so I've always noted this particular combination!

Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-17-2014 at 01:59 AM.
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Old 12-17-2014, 01:55 AM   #143
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Sorry late reply (last week of work)

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post

I'd be interesting into going into them elsethread, though. Probably in a more general way, not restricted to just RS.
Cool

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
What I often have problem with, is drawing the line between a honest match of Man-To-Man-'Chess', and abuse of the system. Divining that requires knowing RAI, at the very minimum.
On one hand, I want a ruleset that maps mostly 1:1 to descriptions of events. On the other, it has been stated that what descriptively happens can only be interpreted after all the game-mechanical issues have been resolved within a turn sequence.
I remember a clarification that when the first, third and seventh 'shot' in a beam weapon RoF attack hit, that does not necessarily mean on-off-on-off shots, but rather that at some point within those ten shots, three in a row got on-target.

So it's not at all clear whether making three steps around a 'trapped' opponent should be described literally, as the opponent not turning around at all, or as the opponent starting to turn immediately, but still suffering penalised / auto-failed defences until he gets to recover from his spin. And I do mean not clear, I don't mean to say that it's necessarily the 'excusing' description.

So . . . separate thread about abstraction vs. literal mapping between system and description?
I think there's always going to be the competing issue of a playable system that can be followed easily and what would happen in real life in a chaotic everyone going at once combat. For me the best to apply the former with an eye on the latter. Rather than just run the former on the assumption it's also the latter.

So for instance I tend to be careful about rules that hinge on a precise cut off points for actions that can be exploited, because the underpinning ethos of the GURPS combat is while it's completed in a step by step turn based way, it's actually a series of concurrent contiunuums. The example in this thread being when you can and can't change facing, but can for instance leverage a hex of movement (with facing change) of defence response.

IME none of these by themselves ever cause that much of an issue, it when you combine a few of them together you get some pretty odd situations.

Weather this is just clever play within the rules, or gaming reality, is going to come done to that balance I first mentioned. Of course that distinction is going to irrelevant to many genres where the constraints of reality have less bearing (this is a point I should perhaps have made a while back).

But yep happy to discuss that in a different thread some time!
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Old 12-17-2014, 03:31 AM   #144
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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If the knife masses less than 1.42lbs, the parry auto-fails, so there's no Knife roll to injure the slammer at all.
Seems like a quirk in the system - does not align with my picture of reality.

Doesn't matter if your opponent slamming into you is much bigger that your knife - it still gonna hurt somewhat if the slammer runs into the pointy end of it.
(He can ran into it sideways erc. not getting any damage but it seems like somekind of a failed roll on the part of the defender not automatic result on every slam by a big guy onto someone wielding a knife)
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Old 12-17-2014, 04:19 AM   #145
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Cool

But yep happy to discuss that in a different thread some time!
Branched-off thread.
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Old 03-30-2017, 05:12 AM   #146
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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The strategy here of using committed attack's 2 steps to circle to the non-knife see then rear seems to assume the knife wielder is on the offensive.

How well would t work if the knife guy was using wait>committed attack himself and able to do Turn maneuvers in response to a sidestepping circler to avoid exposing his rear and even keeping the knife trained on the grappler?
If the knife wielder is not attacking and not following the unarmed character, the unarmed character can simply escape and is no longer being attacked by a man with a knife and thus does not have to attempt a very risky unarmed counter to an armed attacker.

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I think it would be cool to roll this using a pair of average "all 10s" unskilled.humans fighting at default, only diff being the knife. Or maybe 1 point knife vs 1 point any skill of choice.
The unarmed fighter needs ca 4 skill levels higher for him to have a reasonable chance if using all the realistic optional rules.
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Old 03-30-2017, 05:54 AM   #147
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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The strategy here of using committed attack's 2 steps to circle to the non-knife see then rear seems to assume the knife wielder is on the offensive.

How well would t work if the knife guy was using wait>committed attack himself and able to do Turn maneuvers in response to a sidestepping circler to avoid exposing his rear and even keeping the knife trained on the grappler?
Leaving aside the questions already raised.

It becomes much harder for the would be grappler to get into CC and grab (let alone doing so without getting cut or stabbed). As the knife wielder can play the same wait/respond game, and has a reach advantage if they're using a long dagger.

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I think it would be cool to roll this using a pair of average "all 10s" unskilled.humans fighting at default, only diff being the knife. Or maybe 1 point knife vs 1 point any skill of choice.
Knife fighter wins unless they do something silly.

Unarmed person at default is doing 1d-3 cr with a strike, 1d-2 cr with a kick unless they're wearing heavy boots. A long knife is 1d-2 imp / 1d-1 cut (you go with the imp IMO)
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Old 03-30-2017, 06:06 AM   #148
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Knife fighter wins unless they do something silly.

Unarmed person at default is doing 1d-3 cr with a strike, 1d-2 cr with a kick unless they wearing heavy boots. A long knife is 1d-2 imp
And 1d-1 cut. Unless it's a modern knife, in which case it's 1d-1 imp/1d cut for a normal Long Knife (1d-2 imp/1d-1 cut for a Cheap one) and 1d-1 imp/1d-1 cut for a bog standard Large Knife.

For the cheap Long Knife, say a very light brush or survival knife from Africa, that's an average of 3.67 injury to an unarmoured person on a thrust or swing, ignoring random vitals hits and critical hits. For a normal modern large knife it's an average of 3.67 injury on a cut and 5.83 on a stab.

Meanwhile, the unarmed character is doing an average of 1 injury with a punch or 1.5 injury on a kick, hitting only rarely with kicks (and sometimes falling down) and risking injury on a parry with every attack.

The knife has a decent chance of a fight-ending Major Wound within a few seconds and even if not, will cause enough smaller wounds for the unarmed character to fall down in shock and eventually bleed out.

The unarmed character cannot cause a Major Wound without a critical hit or a strike to the skull, which is essentially impossible unless he more skilled than his opponent or very lucky.
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Old 03-30-2017, 06:26 AM   #149
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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And 1d-1 cut. Unless it's a modern knife, in which case it's 1d-1 imp/1d cut for a normal Long Knife (1d-2 imp/1d-1 cut for a Cheap one) and 1d-1 imp/1d-1 cut for a bog standard Large Knife.

For the cheap Long Knife, say a very light brush or survival knife from Africa, that's an average of 3.67 injury to an unarmoured person on a thrust or swing, ignoring random vitals hits and critical hits. For a normal modern large knife it's an average of 3.67 injury on a cut and 5.83 on a stab.

Meanwhile, the unarmed character is doing an average of 1 injury with a punch or 1.5 injury on a kick, hitting only rarely with kicks (and sometimes falling down) and risking injury on a parry with every attack.

The knife has a decent chance of a fight-ending Major Wound within a few seconds and even if not, will cause enough smaller wounds for the unarmed character to fall down in shock and eventually bleed out.


Yep good point, I hadn't even included the default fine quality for TL8! (sorry my brain defaults to TL2-4)

For me a big issue is those 1d-3 cr strikes, even on a successful hit 50% of the time you will do no damage, but the 1d-1 imp knife will always be leaving at least a 2 point imp injury on a successful stab, and 50% of the time a major wound.

And of course even though a 2 point stab wound doesn't by itself end the fight, it's a 2 point shock penalty. Which for someone with only 1 point in their combat skill and DX10 is a big thing.


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The unarmed character cannot cause a Major Wound without a critical hit or a strike to the skull, which is essentially impossible unless he more skilled than his opponent or very lucky.
yep to get a major wound they have to kick (-2) to the skull (-7), and roll a 6 on damage, unless wearing heavy boots in which case needs a 5 or 6.

Although at DX10 and 1 point in the skill, -9 needs a critical hit anyway unless they're AoA(D) / telegraphing!

Last edited by Tomsdad; 03-30-2017 at 07:53 AM.
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