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Old 10-31-2012, 07:39 PM   #31
Kallatari
 
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy party compositions

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
If only someone with Judo Throw would get the big darn Ogre out of the way . . . :-)
My extremely tiny but highly-skilled pixie is waiting on standby with a parry for a defensive throw. Don't worry. I'll take care of him. ;)
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Old 11-01-2012, 12:14 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
There's no resistance roll to Pins. It's explictly noted, more than once, in fact, on MA p. 114 that pins in specific allow no roll to oppose after an All-Out Attack.

SM -2 or SM +5, it's all irrelevant. Just succeed at an unmodified grappling skill roll and you've pinned him.
I see what you are reading. I see it as ridiculous in the extreme, but by MA, you are not wrong. You are still going to want enough DX+Skill+10 to overcome ST +3 - 6 for SM. He can only attempt to break free once per 10 seconds, but that first attempt is going to come in the very next second. DX+Skill+10 totaling 22 vs ST+6 totaling 26 isnt great odds either. AoA Strong gives another +2 to the break free, which put things in a grim way even for a Human (SM+0) trying this. If the barbarian has any bonuses from Wrestling, which he very well might (its a secondary skill), this suddenly becomes a move only actual Martial Artists should be trying.

Best defense against most of this is going to be the berserkers reach keeping grappling/pinning foes out of CC.
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Old 11-01-2012, 02:39 AM   #33
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy party compositions

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More reasons not to use MA.
What are the others?
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Old 11-01-2012, 02:53 AM   #34
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy party compositions

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What are the others?
Previously discussed in this thread ;) Though to be honest, many of the problems are with Basic (something like -1 to wrestling and judo per point your target is stronger than you would fix a bunch of problems).
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Old 11-01-2012, 03:34 AM   #35
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Previously discussed in this thread ;) Though to be honest, many of the problems are with Basic (something like -1 to wrestling and judo per point your target is stronger than you would fix a bunch of problems).
It should be a percentage not a flat point per point basis. Not everyone plays with human ranges exclusively.
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Old 11-01-2012, 05:23 AM   #36
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Previously discussed in this thread ;) Though to be honest, many of the problems are with Basic (something like -1 to wrestling and judo per point your target is stronger than you would fix a bunch of problems).
Yet there's common sense too. When "RAW" word come into talk, it's likely that a rule-lawyer is trying to use weak points to claim some absurde benefit. If a 2 kg pixie would try to throw or pin a 320 kg minotaur, as a GM I would do more than raising an eyebrow.

But what of a telegraphic attack (AoA or not) to hand? A good warrior would be able to dismember even a minotaur hand. Yet I don't know if DF contains D&D style spells to regrowth dismembered body part, turning this menace in a minor annoyance. I never considered Berserker disadvantage as a sensed option for a PC, because I always figured it as a quick death condamne. Now, reading this thread, it seems a huge advantage more than a disadvantage. I'm confused.
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Old 11-01-2012, 09:46 AM   #37
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy party compositions

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
There's no resistance roll to Pins. It's explictly noted, more than once, in fact, on MA p. 114 that pins in specific allow no roll to oppose after an All-Out Attack.

SM -2 or SM +5, it's all irrelevant. Just succeed at an unmodified grappling skill roll and you've pinned him.
That's really a very dumb rule that should be ignored.
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Old 11-08-2012, 09:50 AM   #38
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As for pins not being resistible if you All-Out Attack: I think that doesn't reality check well, but it didn't come up in the playtest.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that the Regular Contest for a pin is, in fact, an effect roll (much like injury, or the quick contest for strangulation and neck snap), not a defense-like roll. Had this come up during the playtest, I'm sure we would have changed the wording to make it so.

So IMO (remember I'm a freelancer and co-author, not an SJG employee) you could amend the rule to takeout "pins" from the sentence about automatically losing a contest, and revise the line below to say "You get a ST roll to resist a pin, or a ST or HT roll to resist injury from strangling, Arm Lock, Neck Snap, Wrench Limb, etc."

I personally wouldn't apply the -2 to the contest for a Committed Attack, either, but if you like that, -2 for a CA, -4 for an AOA would parallel nicely, I think.

Reality checking would support this, I think - it's easy to take someone down if they aren't trying to stop you, but it's not easier to pin someone who is furiously fighting with no thought to defense. That would make it reasonable to do that multi-man rush against a crazed person in order to get them down - suddenly, you need all of them. It should be harder to hold down a berserker, even if it's easier to get them down. Plus this would match Sweep, where you still get your normal rolls, you just don't get much chance to stop the attacker from trying.

Doug can discuss what Technical Grappling does, since I know he's said it handles "pin" in an entirely different fashion than BASIC SET or MARTIAL ARTS.
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Old 11-08-2012, 11:46 AM   #39
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy party compositions

As Peter's coauthor on Martial Arts (and an official staff member, too!), I endorse his words. The spirit of the rule was to prevent people from doing All-Out Attacks against grapplers knowing that they could still evade the many grappling moves that rely on the Quick Contest mechanism instead of the attack roll-defense roll mechanic for their roll to "hit." The exception to allow ST and HT rolls was meant to cover all "saving throws" against all bad effects from grappling moves that had already "hit" by either mechanism . . . and where we called out injury from locks, we probably ought to have explicitly allowed all rolls to resist control (forced change of position, pin, etc.), injury, or affliction (choking or whatever). In short, read that as: "You can't use DX in Quick Contests vs. grappling moves."
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Old 11-08-2012, 06:48 PM   #40
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy party compositions

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Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog View Post
I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that the Regular Contest for a pin is, in fact, an effect roll (much like injury, or the quick contest for strangulation and neck snap), not a defense-like roll. Had this come up during the playtest, I'm sure we would have changed the wording to make it so.[

Doug can discuss what Technical Grappling does, since I know he's said it handles "pin" in an entirely different fashion than BASIC SET or MARTIAL ARTS.
That's correct. We do away with both the flat penalty for being grappled as well as the magical "pin" that dooms you to ten seconds of uselessness.

Instead, you attack to both grapple and break free, and both use an effect roll to see how good your grapple is. To pin someone, you rack up so much effect that they can't roll (their effective skill is less than 3) to do anything.

TG still retains rolls vs. HT or ST (sometimes penalized) in cases where you're resisting injury or where ST is a stand in for mass.

That's the short version; obviously the new rules are a wee bit more detailed.
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