04-27-2009, 08:55 AM | #21 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Top of the deck
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Re: [DF] Difference between Hidden Lore and Occultisme?
Occultism has a default; it represents stuff anyone might know in the appropriate culture. It also might be dead wrong. For example, in a Buffy the Vampire Slayer campaign, you might "know" that vampires must stop at a crossroads.
Hidden Lore has no default; it represents specific knowledge of a hidden topic you must be trained in order to know. Watchers, in our Buffy campaign, would likely have a few Hidden Lore specializations.
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[][] C. Lee Davis © 2014 C. Lee Davis, some rights reserved |
04-27-2009, 09:37 AM | #22 | |
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Re: [DF] Difference between Hidden Lore and Occultisme?
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Occultism, no matter what level you have it at, will not tell you this. The information's just not out there to find. But Hidden Lore (Vampires or Secret Societies or something of the sort) would tell you this. Hidden Lore is precise by its nature, of course. It doesn't make any sense to have a secret body of knowledge that's also bunk; why, every schizophrenic has that for free! (Though they may not keep it a secret.) I see it as kind of a tier system; one skill gives you Ordinary Info, and the other one gives you Extra Cool Secret Info that you can't get any other way. It keeps your players from saying, "well hey, I'm going to sink 20 points into Occultism, and now my PC will know everything about every monster or weird magical effect he encounters!" The utility in a Mythos game is obvious, but it works for other games too. If you still don't see a difference, or don't want one, I recommend you ditch Hidden Lore and let high levels of Occultism work as you suggest. |
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04-27-2009, 09:54 AM | #23 | |
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Re: [DF] Difference between Hidden Lore and Occultisme?
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That aside, I think the relation between Occultism and whatever the actual skills ought to be called is like what Natural Philosophy vs Physics, Naturalist vs Biology or Pharmacy (Herbal) vs Physician are trying to get at, also somewhat unsuccessfully. It's the difference between broad, not terribly accurate but sometimes good enough to be useful information and detailed information that's either right, or you know what the gaps are, instead of having them filled with nonsense. In a campaign in which skills covering demonic names, politics etc were openly available, Occultism might not even exist anymore, having been replaced by the IQ defaults of those skills.
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04-27-2009, 10:20 AM | #24 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: [DF] Difference between Hidden Lore and Occultisme?
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04-27-2009, 10:33 AM | #25 | ||
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: [DF] Difference between Hidden Lore and Occultisme?
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Natural Philosophy doesn't correspond to Physics, it corresponds to Physics, Chemistry, and Biology rolled together, and possibly a few more. You get them all rolled together for one low price presumably because it ditches command of the scientific method and experimental technique in favor of just knowing the 'facts' as determined by other people who don't know the scientific method or experimental technique. Naturalist is the lore side of Survival. It has some overlap with biology because biology is the most relevant single science to wilderness survival, but it's really its own thing. Pharmacy (Herbal) covers Pharmacy duty, plus application. But note it gives no default to First Aid. It's not even pretending to be a complete body of medical knowledge, it just lets you prescribe your poultices and such in addition to making them. |
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04-27-2009, 10:57 AM | #26 | |
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Re: [DF] Difference between Hidden Lore and Occultisme?
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04-27-2009, 11:03 AM | #27 |
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Re: [DF] Difference between Hidden Lore and Occultisme?
To recapitulate what some others have said here:
An Occultism (vampires)-24 skill level lets a character know just about everything *humans* know about vampires. The origins of the myths, the variations throughout the world, various psuedo-scientific, religious, and mystical explanations for the various phenomena. It'll tell you what folklore has to say about vampire powers, weaknesses, and personalities. If vampires are real, this may give you hints about their true natures, but from the point of view of survivors, spectators and researchers who didn't have access to information of the "if you go this far to learn, you'll never live to tell about it," variety. Some of this information may be true, but the truth is mixed into superstition and folklore, with little actual empirical observation. It's the kind of thing that rabbits know about wolves. A Hidden Lore (vampires)-24 skill level lets the character know just about everything *vampires* know about vampires. The character knows the facts that inspired the myths, superstitions, and folklore of the occultist. The Romanians say that vampires are compelled to count dropped seeds and untie knots? That's because Lord Pompousbloodsucker lived outside of Bucharest for 800 years, and he's notoriously obsessive-compulsive. The character knows their names, their heirarchies, something of their agendas and power levels. And he knows their powers, weaknesses, and personalities more as basic fact than superstition and half-remembered tales.
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An ongoing narrative of philosophy, psychology, and semiotics: Et in Arcadia Ego "To an Irishman, a serious matter is a joke, and a joke is a serious matter." |
04-27-2009, 11:25 AM | #28 |
GURPS Line Editor
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
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Re: [DF] Difference between Hidden Lore and Occultisme?
Occultism is the systematic study of the paranormal. Someone who knows it has a broad understanding – which may at times be incomplete or out-and-out wrong – of cryptids, curses, fortune-telling, ghosts, miracles, psychic phenomena, spells, etc., as formalized by academic-minded outsiders. The skill provides no ability to do these things, no grasp of specifics, and no "view from the inside."
In the context of the paranormal, Hidden Lore is the rote memorization of one specific set of correct facts. It's narrow, makes no attempt to present itself as analytical, and isn't subjective. Daigoro put it fairly aptly when he said, "Hidden Lore is what is taught by the monsters." It consists of facts such as the names and hierarchies of demons or vampires, or the locations of entrances to Faerie. And things like Alchemy, Fortune-Telling, Herb Lore, Religious Ritual, Ritual Magic, Symbol Drawing, and Thaumatology are the skills of invoking supernatural forces or pretending to do so in the manner prescribed by the bulk of practitioners in your world. They, too, apply to one narrow area apiece. In a world where such skills exist, Occultism functions a bit like an Expert Skill that replaces any of these skills when your goal is only to know the consensus view of the paranormal held by practitioners in these fields. Since these areas are vast, difficult, and often in conflict, this makes Occultism rather vague and often wrong. Shifting from the paranormal to the scientific to make the point, the third group of skills above would become Biology, Chemistry, Physics, etc. – the skills of specific sciences as generally accepted in the world. The skill comparable to Occultism for these would be Current Affairs (Science & Technology); that is, knowing what non-scientists are saying about the state of human understanding of science. And in this context, Hidden Lore would be replaced by a Security Clearance advantage that let one in on specific applications of science known to a privileged few, like a corporation's patented processes or a government's strategic weapons.
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04-27-2009, 11:27 AM | #29 | |
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
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Re: [DF] Difference between Hidden Lore and Occultisme?
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04-27-2009, 11:47 AM | #30 | |
GURPS FAQ Keeper
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyïv, Ukraine
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Re: [DF] Difference between Hidden Lore and Occultisme?
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