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Old 09-17-2020, 12:53 AM   #11
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Default Re: Issues with Retreating Dodge

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
(...) could a reach 4 spear parry guns from 4 hexes away?
If you are in reach, it's valid. It's also valid if you have enough SM to reach the gun with a "natural weapon".
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Old 09-17-2020, 07:58 AM   #12
clu2415
 
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Default Re: Issues with Retreating Dodge

You could also use a slam to knock them prone. No move and attack penalty or skill cap for slams.
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Old 09-17-2020, 08:40 AM   #13
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Default Re: Issues with Retreating Dodge

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
The swordsman can also try a Slam, though that's probably best if they have a shield and a good Shield skill (so they can use Deceptive Attack).
Deceptive Attack is just as appropriate for a basic Slam attack as it is for a Shield Rush, unless you wish to suggest that you can't use DA with Brawling or Sumo Wrestling. The advantages of a Shield Rush over a basic Slam are a) the shield takes the damage you would have taken and b) you add the Defense Bonus of the shield to the damage you deal.

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Oh, and the archer is only attacking every 3rd turn unless they've a Fast-Draw high enough to reliably quick-load their bow, and even then it's only every second turn. Thus the swordsman is getting twice as many attacks, though they aren't accurate.
This is probably the most important bit. Unless the archer has Heroic Archer and/or Weapon Master (anything that includes Bow) they would have to make not only the Fast Draw (Arrow) roll, but also two Bow rolls at -6 to fire every round in a cinematic game. In a realistic game the archer has an additional -4 on all three rolls.

See the Quick-Shooting Bows section in Martial Arts (pp. 119-120) for the full rules.
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Old 09-17-2020, 09:31 AM   #14
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Default Re: Issues with Retreating Dodge

Without any fancy options or Martial Arts rules, the swordsman should simply use Move, rather than Move and Attack, to charge into the archer's hex. Now the archer has no option to retreat, as there was no attack. The archer can step out of close combat to shoot, but then he is within parry range of the sword. Or the archer can try shooting in close combat, but he will suffer Bulk penalties.
Maybe the archer's best move is to do Move and Attack, but he will suffer Bulk penalties, and he can't do that on the turns he is busy nocking.

Swordsman vs. archer, given equal skill levels and an infinite featureless plain, is not a sure win for either side, which fits well with my intuition. Give the swordsman a shield or a more enclosed space, and he's at a strong advantage, which also fits my intuition.

Retreats are hard to get used to, but once you play with them for a while, fewer weird things happen than you might expect. They add a lot more movement and versatility (and potentially weird situations) if you allow Extra Effort (Giant Step) and/or have characters with Move 11+ (which gives step and retreat lengths of 2 yards or more).
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Old 09-17-2020, 04:09 PM   #15
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Default Re: Issues with Retreating Dodge

The main advantage for archers is that they can attack at distance. If they let melee fighters get close to them, they are often better off switching to a melee weapon than trying to attack with the bow (unless they are Heroic Archers). A really good archer should be able to disable most melee fighters though before they get close.
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Old 09-17-2020, 04:35 PM   #16
Kallatari
 
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Default Re: Issues with Retreating Dodge

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Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
Forgot to mention

Both Move & Attack and All-Out Attack permit you to strike at ANY point during your movement, during AND after (AOA also allows you to strike before movement).

What that means is that you can take M&A, approach your target within 1 yard reach, strike at them without close-combat penalties, and THEN move into close combat with them as long as you have enough MP left.
This is how we solve that problem in my games, whether it's the PC retreating from NPC, or vice-versa. They may have retreated, but you then close the distance with the remainder of your move, and their Step on their turn is not enough to get them out of your reach for your next attack.
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Old 09-17-2020, 10:09 PM   #17
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Default Re: Issues with Retreating Dodge

Yes, I believe you have the idea correct, but there are several things the swordsman can do.

My first idea would be to drop a fatigue on extra effort: Mighty Blows (B357). This mimics AoA: Strong (B365) without the defense penalty. This, in turn, allows for half movement. In this method, it's tiring to chase down the archer AND swing at him. Not actually that much of a problem.

Idea 2:
One good AoA targeting the bow would probably end the problem and is a pretty realistic solution. Weapon is normally a -2 to target. I'd probably go for -4 to target a bowstring with a swinging weapon because it's pretty easy to tell where they are. On an AoA: Determined you're at no penalty and can still take half your move forward. For extra caution, use fatigue instead of AoA.

Idea 3: trip attack or tackle
I'm no expert at the grappling rules, but typically if the little guy is dancing around the big guy plinking at him, he gets jumped on.
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Old 09-17-2020, 10:42 PM   #18
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Issues with Retreating Dodge

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Originally Posted by khorboth View Post
My first idea would be to drop a fatigue on extra effort: Mighty Blows (B357). This mimics AoA: Strong (B365) without the defense penalty. This, in turn, allows for half movement. In this method, it's tiring to chase down the archer AND swing at him. Not actually that much of a problem.
Doesn't work. As B357 says, EE: Mighty Blows allows you to "gain the damage bonus of an All-Out Attack (Strong)". Not the movement profile!
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Originally Posted by khorboth View Post
Idea 2:
One good AoA targeting the bow would probably end the problem and is a pretty realistic solution. Weapon is normally a -2 to target. I'd probably go for -4 to target a bowstring with a swinging weapon because it's pretty easy to tell where they are. On an AoA: Determined you're at no penalty and can still take half your move forward. For extra caution, use fatigue instead of AoA.
You could target the weapon, but doing so doesn't hamper your enemy's defenses as far as I know. So I'm not sure why you'd chop the bowstring rather than the archer's arm.
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Originally Posted by khorboth View Post
Idea 3: trip attack or tackle
I'm no expert at the grappling rules, but typically if the little guy is dancing around the big guy plinking at him, he gets jumped on.
This works, though if you can successfully land a hit hitting the archer with your sword may be more effective - getting hit with a sword is often a pretty severe impediment to further effective fighting.
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Old 09-18-2020, 12:27 AM   #19
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Default Re: Issues with Retreating Dodge

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Originally Posted by WingedKagouti View Post
Deceptive Attack is just as appropriate for a basic Slam attack as it is for a Shield Rush, unless you wish to suggest that you can't use DA with Brawling or Sumo Wrestling. The advantages of a Shield Rush over a basic Slam are a) the shield takes the damage you would have taken and b) you add the Defense Bonus of the shield to the damage you deal.
There's all that, but also it seemed likely to me that a swordsman would have a better Shield skill than Brawling, though it does depend on build. Mainly, I said it'd be better with a shield because of the extra damage, and thus the extra chance of knocking the archer down.
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Old 09-18-2020, 05:31 AM   #20
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Issues with Retreating Dodge

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Originally Posted by bearit View Post
I had a rather frustrating experience with GURPS recently.

Using Basic Set rules. A combat situation occurred where a melee combatant (Broadsword wielder) charged a ranged combatant (Bow wielder). The combat went as follows:

-Broadsword used a Move and Attack to close the distance to 1 hex and attack.
-Bow used a Retreating Dodge, stepping back and increasing distance to 2 hexes.
-Bow used the Attack Manuever, taking another Step back, increasing distance to 3 hexes, and shooting Broadsword.
-Now 3 hexes away, Broadsword must again make another Move and Attack or All-Out Attack to close the distance and attack.

The pattern continued with the defensive ranged combatant outpacing the melee combatant until Broadsword died full of arrows.

It seems inherently faulty that Retreating Dodge gives not only active defense bonuses, but essentially double movement (2 steps) with NO penalties. A melee combatant ALWAYS had to eat a substantial penalty - skill cap of 9 (Move and Attack) or no active defenses (All-Out Attack) - just to keep up with a backpedaling foe.

Has anyone else encountered this situation? I'm I interpreting the rules wrong?

This situation seems entirely ridiculous as it was playing out.
Couple of points (EDIT: some have already been mentioned by other posters):

1). the archer was obviously able to constantly move backwards without worrying about what's behind them or running out of space until they had pin-cushioned the broadsword to death. Not every combat scenario will be like that.

2). I'm assuming the archer had all his ready actions sorted out? In Basic bows have a ROF of 1(2) meaning you need 2 ready actions between attacking. One to retrieve the arrow from a quiver etc one to load and ready the bow. I think all the rules for making these two ready actions instant are in basic thus allowing for an arrow to be fired every turn, but they're going to making 1 or 2 DX rolls each time to do it and unless they lots of points in DX to do it off default, points spent in relevent fast draw skills?

(there are more rules that affect this in other books)

3). If the Broadsword is going to close the distance quickly he may as well commit with an AoA, or use a slam with Move and attack. Both reduce the penalties or limitations of closing the distance.

4). Shields, if broadsword has a shield he can slam better and block

5), Distance, if Broadsword timed his Move and attack to only just put them 1 hex away from the Archer, it's a gamble. If they choose their moves so that they still has a hex's worth of Mv left than they can use it follow up. The text for Move and Attack on pg365 specifically says the attack can be made during or after the Move. Some GM's might not allow any unspent Mv to be used in response to a retreat changing the initial situation. But given all this is supposed to be continuous action, not IGOUGO even if that's how it is played out at the table, I would allow it.


(IIRC Kromm has said that unused steps can be used to follow up retreating combatants. This isn't exactly the same but IMO close enough as it demonstrates responding to a retreat with unspent Mv)



There are more options for the broadsword in other books, (committed attack with two steps, AoA Long etc) but that's other books.
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Last edited by Tomsdad; 09-18-2020 at 07:08 AM.
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