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Old 11-18-2018, 08:39 PM   #11
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: The Last Gasp and Hiking Redux

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Originally Posted by lugaid View Post
Varyon: That's an interesting idea, but it seems like it removes a lot of the benefits of using TLG in the first place, other than maybe incorporating AP.
The way I see it, the advantages of TLG are the incorporation of AP (and all the nuances that come with it) and disincentivizing excessive burning of FP (as under the basic system, someone who exhausts themselves to the point where they are at risk of passing out just needs to rest for up to 2 hours - half that with Fit - and be back to 100%). My suggestion maintains the first, and with the option of restricting such temporary FP "damage" to some percentage of maximum FP, it can maintain the second. As I feel TLG disincentivizes the burning of any FP too heavily, I think my suggestion allows for a bit better of an approach.

As for how much temporary FP damage one can take, I'd eyeball it at 50% of max FP in you're penalizing AP 1 for 1, 30% if 2 for 1, and maybe 20% or so for 3 for 1. Note this is for things like Extra Effort, Hiking, Hazards (starvation, dehydration, freezing, heat, etc), Magic/Powers/Esoteric skills, and so forth. Burning FP to restore AP should probably stay just as exhausting as it is in the article.
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Old 11-19-2018, 12:56 AM   #12
Plane
 
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Default Re: The Last Gasp and Hiking Redux

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Originally Posted by lugaid View Post
I'm not sure that dipping into the AP section of the article is necessarily going to prove useful. Those numbers are rounded for combat purposes, and probably won't match up well to the needs of long-distance travel. Mainly, I think that it's probably better to concentrate on the levels of fatigue of the first half of the article, and adjust the FP costs for long-distance travel to fit.

It might be interesting at some point to work out in detail the AP costs of hiking and resulting FP losses and compare those to the movement costs in TLG, but for now I just want to set the regular FP costs of long-distance travel, so we can get an estimate of how tired the characters will be when they arrive at their destination and have to jump straight into a fight, or whatever.
Page 6 had some guidelines
Quote:
You can move around at a speed of up to 20% of your encumbered Move and still recover fatigue.

If during any recovery interval, you expend FP for any reason .. any time already spent resting for that interval is lost.
20% of Move 5 is Move 1, a step, which is "free" and costs 0 AP.

Having the spending of 1 AP resulting in ANY time spent being lost is kind of extreme, but the more AP you use, the harder/longer it should be.

Rather than a stark barrier of "any amount of AP is fine, but even 1 FP means your rest is ruined" some kind of roll to recover FP (like how people roll to recover HP) penalized the more active you are, could be done up.

Odd situations like "I rested perfectly for 119/120 minutes but then lost an FP, my rest is ruined" might be treated instead like building up time to get FP back, but that "stored time" bleeds away if you're forced to use AP or FP, requiring a longer period than normal to get it, but maybe not a "start from 0".

We have an FP>AP ratio (50% HT) but obviously can't work that efficiently in reverse. Someone with HT 10 rolls against HT 14 on a Do Nothing, and 3d6 results in 14 or less around 90% of the time, and 50% of the time you win by 4 (+1) and so in 10 seconds you'll probably recover 9+5=14 AP, or 84/min.

If FP was manufactured out of "overflow" AP then if you required a 2 hour (120 minute) interval, it would take building up 10,080 AP overflow to rebuild your lost FP.

To reflect how disruptive activity would be, maybe something like "any time you lose AP, subtract 10x that amount from your overflow" so that 10 seconds of punching a bag would subtract over a minute's worth of rest. Since FP burns to make HT/2 FP, losing 1 FP should subtract HT*5 from the overflow.

In comparing costs, for 120 points you can buy Regeneration (Fatigue Recovery) for 3 FP/sec, with HT 4 you could burn that for 6 AP/sec, which costs 150 points to buy with "Regeneration (AP Recovery)". RFR is much cheaper than RAP so making an AP-based FP-recovery system doesn't sound out of balance.

Could even do something more sliding than mild/severe/deep, like say "the AP overflow cost of recovering 1 FP is equal to the amount of lost FP times 1,000"? That works out to around 11 minutes for the first FP, but grows to 2 hours after 10 lost FP. If you want to average the 2 hours occuring at the midpoint between -1 and -5 then "lost FP x 3,000" might fit best.
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Old 11-19-2018, 06:44 AM   #13
DouglasCole
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Default Re: The Last Gasp and Hiking Redux

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Having the spending of 1 AP resulting in ANY time spent being lost is kind of extreme,
Fatigue Points spent, not Action Points. You can spend AP, but you can't spend enough that you need to drop a FP to boost your AP. You can't cast a spell that burns FP, nor make a Heroic Charge (FP). Burning a few AP is fine.

Edit: Ah. I see. You're trying to make it variable.

My only other comment is that while AP and slow-recovery FP are cool enough, the book-keeping already inherent in the article means that folks don't use it at the table. I'd simplify somehow, rather than complicate, unless the intent is to use this with a computer, and even then, that's rare enough that it's making "this is for my group, what of it?" the watchword.
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Old 11-19-2018, 09:21 AM   #14
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Default Re: The Last Gasp and Hiking Redux

How about an individual hiking the Appalachian trail?

Let's say that an "average" thru hiker has: HT 11 or 12, Hiking 14, Move 5.5, BDR 11. Let's call the trail half average and half bad, for a travel distance modifier of x0.75. Let's also put them on the trail 8 hours a day using the guidelines above. How do they do?

They travel 11 (BDR) x 1.2 (Hiking Pace) x4/3 (Extra Time) x (0.75) Terrain
13.2 miles per day. They spend 6 FP or 3 FP depending on whether they make their hiking roll, which they will make about 75% of the time (rolling vs a 12 because of the -2). Barring a streak of unlucky rolls, they can maintain this pace indefinitely, because their expected value for FP spent is 3.75, which they can recover with regular rest.

This means they will complete the 2189 mile trail in 166 days, which is very close to reported average times for the average through hike on the AT.

I designed the system with a particular purpose: I wanted to abstract a whole day into a single roll. If you're trying to carve up a day smaller into individual marches, then you may need a different approach. I don't know how gamable the system is, but I feel like it matches real-world outcomes fairly well. That was my design goal.
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Old 11-19-2018, 06:35 PM   #15
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Default Re: The Last Gasp and Hiking Redux

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
My only other comment is that while AP and slow-recovery FP are cool enough, the book-keeping already inherent in the article means that folks don't use it at the table. I'd simplify somehow, rather than complicate, unless the intent is to use this with a computer, and even then, that's rare enough that it's making "this is for my group, what of it?" the watchword.
Yeah, I've been eyeing the Long-Term Fatigue (LFP) rules in After the End 1 p. 24 lately, as I try to work this out. Definitely not nearly as punishing as the ones in TLG, but they do seem like they'd be a lot easier to track at the table, and they still hit most of the purpose behind them I think. I might add counting any FP used below 0FP as LFP in addition to other below 0FP effects.
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Old 11-20-2018, 11:44 AM   #16
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Default Re: The Last Gasp and Hiking Redux

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Fatigue Points spent, not Action Points. You can spend AP, but you can't spend enough that you need to drop a FP to boost your AP.
I'm wondering if there is a way to think of the eventual loss of FP after hours of hiking could somehow be put in the context of this being necessary.

Like maybe if you critically fail a HT roll to recover AP you could get a cumulative -1 to future HT rolls for the next hour, so it gradually becomes harder to recover AP over time and when even a series of Do Nothings isn't helping you spend the FP to get the AP instead.

Getting past "hitting the wall" or "the bonk" basically. So it's not too brutal, maybe any time you burn an FP to get the "Second Wind" this would also remove -1 worth of accumulated HT penalties.
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