11-16-2018, 10:26 PM | #11 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Can the same NPC be both an Ally and Enemy to a PC?
Being an Enemy in GURPS terms is about the frequency and severity of them making life difficult for the PC.
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11-18-2018, 06:32 PM | #12 | |
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Saint Paul, MN
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Re: Can the same NPC be both an Ally and Enemy to a PC?
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If it's a long campaign arc sort of thing where a lot of time passes before anything bad happens, then that's just an NPC doing his nasty thing. PCs don't get new disadvantages every time they are double-crossed by an NPC. Having said that, I guess I have rarely "awarded" an official enemy disadvantage to a PC, but that feels different than the usual array of antagonistic factions and individuals. It's usually a group penalty for an adventure gone awry or an individual penalty for an ill-thought-out action ("I pickpocket the king!"). Hmm. Do others add lots of enemy disads to the PCs over time? |
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11-18-2018, 07:29 PM | #13 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Can the same NPC be both an Ally and Enemy to a PC?
In my game PCs tend to have a lot of enemies, but not Enemies. The distinction being that an Enemy:
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11-18-2018, 07:55 PM | #14 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
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Re: Can the same NPC be both an Ally and Enemy to a PC?
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You bring up a valid point in the sense that there is a difference between "Enemy" and "enemy". Those gained through game play vs those that the player started off with. How exactly does one handle the issue of "Secret Enemy"? Does the GM tell the player "oh, by the way, take extra points for your character, because he has a secret enemy"? Does the player tell the GM "hey, I want a secret Enemy, make one up for me but don't tell me anything ok?" What of those enemies that the player acquires during game play? Every time they appear in the story is a function of their "activation" value, so my question then is, what is the difference between an acquired enemy whose frequency value is 9, who acts as a Benefactor in lieu of his planning outright malicious acts - all to set up the player character for the final utter betrayal - and one whose frequency is 9, who LIVES to make life difficult for the player character? In the end? I can see where you are going with this line initially, but it just doesn't feel right. In a GURPS FANTASY campaign, if the secret enemy hates the guts of the player character and the empathy advantage is used on the secret enemy, or know emotions - the hatred would still be there behind all of his surface thoughts. Even if the NPC weren't actively thinking about betrayal, his emotions would still end up betraying his real thoughts overall. So - I can respect your take on it, but - as a GM who has had to think on the issues for his own players, this one feels more in line with what the "reality" of the circumstances are, and the best fit of the rules. Every single time the hidden enemy helps his planned victim, secretly, he wants to rip the eyes out, stomp on the man's most pain inducing locations, engage in slow torture, etc - but out loud he says "Sure thing" with a smile and does his best to keep the unsuspecting victim in the dark. |
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11-18-2018, 07:57 PM | #15 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
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Re: Can the same NPC be both an Ally and Enemy to a PC?
One more thing while I'm thinking about it...
I almost never allow "Ally Group"where all allies in the group are identical. Say what? Likewise, I keep every enemy separate instead of lumping them together in a group. Why? They are acting out of concert with any other enemies. Their efforts aren't coordinated. As a consequence, that bit of the SJGames rules for GURPS is "modified" by my "house rule" mentality. ;) |
11-18-2018, 08:36 PM | #16 | |||
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Can the same NPC be both an Ally and Enemy to a PC?
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Enemy or ally is based on actions, not feelings. A Unwilling ally (B38) is often an Enemy based on feelings. |
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11-19-2018, 12:58 AM | #17 | |
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Meifumado
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Re: Can the same NPC be both an Ally and Enemy to a PC?
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A GURPS Enemy doesn't have to be someone who hates you (although that's the simplest approach), but someone who interferes in what you want to do. If you're the Punisher, the No-Kill Pacifism Daredevil will show up to stop you dropping bodies, but then fight by your side when the whole city is being threatened. Likewise for Captain America- Iron Man is your buddy, until some maniac tells him that your other buddy killed his mother. Enemy could also be a teen superhero's parents who would ground him if they found his superduds, or even worse if you follow some of the X-Men character backgrounds.
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Collaborative Settings: Cyberpunk: Duopoly Nation Space Opera: Behind the King's Eclipse And heaps of forum collabs, 30+ and counting! Last edited by Daigoro; 11-19-2018 at 01:02 AM. |
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11-19-2018, 03:41 AM | #18 | |
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Trondheim, Norway
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Re: Can the same NPC be both an Ally and Enemy to a PC?
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After character creation, giving a player an Ally or Enemy doesn't affect the character's other stats. It's not like they can get a -10 point Enemy and add +1 ST at the same time. (Like they can at character creation.) Since RPGs are cooperative games (at least when I am the GM), Allies and Enemies are helping/hindering everyone. If for instance Alice's character needs to hide in an attic for a week while her Enemy searches for her, many of her skills and Advantages will be unavailable to the rest of the team for that duration.
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11-19-2018, 07:14 AM | #19 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
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Re: Can the same NPC be both an Ally and Enemy to a PC?
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Having someone who has the trait "Dependents" and then holding the dependents hostage, forces the individual with dependents to become an unwilling ally. Remove the hostage situation, and the individual may be free to attack the person who coerced such behavior. If he's a pacifist, then he will simply think "What goes around comes around, I hope you get yours someday soon" and then leaves. But again, it boils down to each GM having their own perception of what they think is human behavior, and what rules within GURPS BASIC SET CHARACTERS best fits. The real problem if you will, is this from page 36: Many fictional heroes have partners – loyal comrades, faithful sidekicks, trusted retainers, or lifelong friends – who accompany them on adventures. These partners are “Allies.” It goes on to discuss what Player Characters are relative to "Allies" as defined in GURPS as an advantage. It uses the word "Unreliable" - which when you get right down to it, is a defining aspect of "Ally". They are if nothing else, RELIABLE. But note too, that the rules for Ally include something VERY specific - you may not earn bonus character points if you betray or attack your ally. So an ally who is also your enemy - what then? It then goes on to state that blatant abuse or betrayal of the trust results in the loss of the Ally. Hell, the moment the ally is your enemy, should be grounds then and there to state "He's not your ally"! As for Enemies, you're right. Enemies actively work against you during the adventure(s). But here is the tricky part in all of this. GURPS has Allies as an all or nothing affair where they are absolutely trust worthy. The original Poster was asking about what happens when the relationship between a player character and an NPC is somewhere between absolute white and absolute black (so to speak). From my read, Allies as an advantage precludes one from attacking the other - or the trust vanishes. In all, a grey area that the original poster was well within his rights to question. My read is - no. Either the ally is an ally, or he isn't. Now, what happens if/when, an ally finds himself in a position where he is being coerced into acting against the best interests of his friend? What then? Initially, if the player character is unaware of the coercion, he may take it as a betrayal and the trust is gone. Later, upon discovery of the circumstances, as a TRUE friend, he may forgive his buddy for the betrayal saying something like "I understand why, and it is what I'd have done if I were in your shoes". But I largely suspect what would have to happen is that what ever it was the coerced the erstwhile ally into becoming a temporary enemy - be removed from the picture. Worse? That implicit trust has been replaced with "yeah, I know that I can't trust him implicitly, because if he ever gets blackmailed/coerced again, I can expect him to turn on me". That seems to violate the actual belief as stated in the description for Ally. <shrug> So, I try to keep an open mind for alternative interpretations where I can concede they're "viable" (aka honestly held beliefs). As it happens, my "belief" based on the wording, is that no, you can't have an Ally who is also an enemy. But - as you so succinctly pointed out, my interpretation of an enemy who is in the long haul, going to be the ultimate betrayer doesn't quite fit the description of "actively plotting and causing problems" either. So, my "grey area" circumstance doesn't entirely fit the description of a false ally per the GURPS description. I did note (as a nod to Daigoro) the fact that some "Allies" will at times, cause problems, but Allies try to talk you out of a course of action they feel is wrong. They can argue with you. They can get you into trouble. In the Captain America thingie (I don't much follow comics - so forgive me on that!) - having a Superhero who interferes with you simply killing in a wanton fashion - but does so without attacking you outright, seems to be in keeping with what GURPS stipulates. Now for the $64,000. If a player character suffers from Berserk, does the act of attacking the berserker in an effort to immobilize him from causing irreparable damage/death - qualify as undermining the implicit trust feature of the "Ally" description? I largely suspect the answer is "No" - but hey, that's just me playing the devil's advocate. ;) |
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11-21-2018, 06:54 PM | #20 |
Join Date: Nov 2015
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Re: Can the same NPC be both an Ally and Enemy to a PC?
How about modeling this as an Enemy with a Limitation (not while the world is under threat). You'd have to figure out a frequency of that, maybe use the guides in Power Ups 8.
The problem with this approach is that you have just one frequency of appearance. |
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