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Old 05-10-2012, 06:45 AM   #11
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Default Re: WEird notation in MH3

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
There's also the issue of whether a GM would allow such a Technique without at least an Unusual Training/Unique Technique/whatever unusual background at perk level.
Yeup - but its worth noting it's semi-redundant in a game that allows the cinematic extra effort in combat rules (Heroic Charge removes the entire to-hit penalty). Heroic charge costs a FP per use though, whereas the technique doesn't, so it may still be useful.
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Old 05-10-2012, 07:03 AM   #12
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Default Re: Weird notation in MH3

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-1 for breaking a rule (the 9 cap) and the usual -4 for move and attack makes it a -5 technique, specialized per attack most likely. I would assume it's a Hard technique due to breaking the rule. The werewolf apparently has it bought up to -3 (comparing all the numbers) so if it were a player, it would have 3 points spent on being able to do it with Bite, and 3 points spent on doing it with Claw.
If you wanted to build it, it could also simply be a rules exception perk allowing it to use Heroic Charge even though it can't normally use EE. You could then give it some FP (only for EE)... or something. Anyway, there are many ways to achieve this as a PC.
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Old 05-10-2012, 09:33 AM   #13
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Default Re: Weird notation in MH3

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But again, monsters don't have point budgets
Except when they are enemies.

Or, perhaps more rarely, allies or dependents.

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and the only purpose of "point costs" is staying inside a budget.

And here I was thinking that GURPS had optional rules for things like sacrifices, or duplicating others' abilities, or other things which might make it very useful to know the point values of enemies and/or their individual abilities, independently of whether the enemy was built to a point budget.
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Old 05-10-2012, 09:39 AM   #14
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Default Re: Weird notation in MH3

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Originally Posted by cmdicely View Post
Except when they are enemies.
Enemies don't really need them either as long as you can eyeball less, equal, or more powerful. In a game like Monster Hunters, I'm not sure that points would even help here.
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Or, perhaps more rarely, allies or dependents.
Surely these would be Inhumans, not Monsters.

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And here I was thinking that GURPS had optional rules for things like sacrifices, or duplicating others' abilities, or other things which might make it very useful to know the point values of enemies and/or their individual abilities, independently of whether the enemy was built to a point budget.
Basing these things on point value seems weird. Are multibillionaires and commandos really "worth" more in a spiritual sense or whatever?
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:05 AM   #15
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Except when they are enemies.

Or, perhaps more rarely, allies or dependents.
But then they aren't Monsters as defined by MH = "things the players hunt/fight".
Sure an enemy, ally or dependent might be monstrous, even a werewolf and could be called a monster. But they are not Monsters.
Monsters are stuff you fight, and so only need to know how it works, not why.

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Originally Posted by cmdicely View Post
And here I was thinking that GURPS had optional rules for things like sacrifices, or duplicating others' abilities, or other things which might make it very useful to know the point values of enemies and/or their individual abilities, independently of whether the enemy was built to a point budget.
Ok, there are some truth to this. For instance using the spells Banish to banish Demons, it's FP cost is based on the dmeons CP-total. But IMO that's a terrible outdated way of doing it, and extremely bothersome to the GM. And luckily outside of Magic (which is known for it's legacy errors) I haven't see points-total being used anywhere.
However templates are sometimes relevant. for instance if PC's can morph into them. But then you don't actually need to know it's points total and again don't really need to know why, just how.
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:16 AM   #16
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Default Re: WEird notation in MH3

The OP's question has been answered in detail. I'm writing to address one of the side issues that was raised:

With apologies to those who like it, point values on creatures expressly designed as evil NPC monsters represent too much work for too little gain.

It takes me perhaps five minutes to slap down the right attributes and traits to fit a monster description, and maybe another five minutes to calculate damage, Dodge, etc. so that they're consistent with those attributes and traits. It takes me at least an hour to work up a relatively complex monster on points if I must modify Affliction, Innate Attack, Leech, etc. for its special attacks; build unique techniques for its trademark combat moves; coin new perks for its minor-but-beneficial features; and so on. Indeed, a complex Innate Attack can take me 5-10 minutes all by itself. And if the creature uses Alternate Forms, or has a set of alternative abilities, or uses an actual structured power (with power modifier, power Talent, and abilities) . . . well, it can take hours to write up properly.

And that's me, one of the designers of GURPS Fourth Edition; coauthor of GURPS Martial Arts (for techniques) and GURPS Powers (for abilities and powers); author of GURPS Power-Ups 2 (for perks); and one of two people in the whole world paid to work on GURPS and only on GURPS as a full-time job. My freelancers assure me that things are tougher for them. This is why PK and I must double-check all of their math, which adds editorial overhead to the writing overhead.

Such expense is nevertheless entirely justified for a race that's intended for PCs, for Alternate Forms for PCs, and/or for NPC Allies. However, if the author intends his creation to be strictly monstrous – a race of foes – and if most gamers will likely use it that way, then this additional work is impossible to justify. Freelance writers simply do not get paid enough to do an order of magnitude more work on the off chance that somebody will need a point cost for some optional rule – and gamers wouldn't pay what the books would cost if we remedied that. The gamer who's interested in off-label use has the tools at his disposal if he wishes to work out points.

The point of GURPS is that it provides the means to transcend old-school concepts like "NPC races." This means that it provides the tools to do the math, not that it does all the math for you. The fact that one can work out point costs for monsters if one wishes is the promise that the game makes. There's no promise that it will do that every time. In a good many cases, the latter would be a rather perverse "Because it's there!" exercise.
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:30 AM   #17
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Default Re: WEird notation in MH3

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
The OP's question has been answered in detail. I'm writing to address one of the side issues that was raised:

With apologies to those who like it, point values on creatures expressly designed as evil NPC monsters represent too much work for too little gain.

It takes me perhaps five minutes to slap down the right attributes and traits to fit a monster description, and maybe another five minutes to calculate damage, Dodge, etc. so that they're consistent with those attributes and traits. It takes me at least an hour to work up a relatively complex monster on points if I must modify Affliction, Innate Attack, Leech, etc. for its special attacks; build unique techniques for its trademark combat moves; coin new perks for its minor-but-beneficial features; and so on. Indeed, a complex Innate Attack can take me 5-10 minutes all by itself. And if the creature uses Alternate Forms, or has a set of alternative abilities, or uses an actual structured power (with power modifier, power Talent, and abilities) . . . well, it can take hours to write up properly.

And that's me, one of the designers of GURPS Fourth Edition; coauthor of GURPS Martial Arts (for techniques) and GURPS Powers (for abilities and powers); author of GURPS Power-Ups 2 (for perks); and one of two people in the whole world paid to work on GURPS and only on GURPS as a full-time job. My freelancers assure me that things are tougher for them. This is why PK and I must double-check all of their math, which adds editorial overhead to the writing overhead.

Such expense is nevertheless entirely justified for a race that's intended for PCs, for Alternate Forms for PCs, and/or for NPC Allies. However, if the author intends his creation to be strictly monstrous – a race of foes – and if most gamers will likely use it that way, then this additional work is impossible to justify. Freelance writers simply do not get paid enough to do an order of magnitude more work on the off chance that somebody will need a point cost for some optional rule – and gamers wouldn't pay what the books would cost if we remedied that. The gamer who's interested in off-label use has the tools at his disposal if he wishes to work out points.

The point of GURPS is that it provides the means to transcend old-school concepts like "NPC races." This means that it provides the tools to do the math, not that it does all the math for you. The fact that one can work out point costs for monsters if one wishes is the promise that the game makes. There's no promise that it will do that every time. In a good many cases, the latter would be a rather perverse "Because it's there!" exercise.
Might be worth tossing a summary of that post on the FAQ section under GM hints/suggestions.
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Old 05-10-2012, 02:46 PM   #18
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Default Re: WEird notation in MH3

I really do like simple and immediate stat blocks and approve their wide usage (I should have in included them in the NPC section of Mirror of tFD) over detailed descriptions for anything unlikely to be used as PCs.

I also remember this was not always the case: in Fantasy we got points value for IQ 4 monstrous creatures like the Rukh (520 pts) and the chimera (85 pts).
(got to bash Gurps: Fantasy every now and then!!!).
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Old 05-10-2012, 02:50 PM   #19
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Default Re: WEird notation in MH3

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I also remember this was not always the case: in Fantasy we got points value for IQ 4 monstrous creatures like the Rukh (520 pts) and the chimera (85 pts).
Yes, but that's Bill.
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Old 05-10-2012, 06:26 PM   #20
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Default Re: WEird notation in MH3

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Yes, but that's Bill.
If you read the "Resolved" monster thread that didn't really resolve anything, Bill explains his idea that CP totals represent a kind of narrative gravity.
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