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Old 05-23-2005, 05:45 AM   #41
HANS
 
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Default Re: Can a Navy SEAL be made for 200 cps?

>Also, my guess is that you picked DX 13 not because it might be more realistic, but because it was more point optimized than DX 14.

Well, of course. I can't possibly know what DX stat would be realistic since it is not quantifiable in the real world. However, it is a reasonable assumption that such a character would have a higher DX than an average dude -- but not superhuman high. Further, since GURPS templates are supposed to be cost-optimised, DX 13 gives the best compromise between reasonable stat level and overall skill cost. DX 11 or DX 15 don't work. DX 12 and DX 14 probably would, but I feel overall DX 13 gives the best result.

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Old 05-23-2005, 11:04 AM   #42
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Default Re: Can a Navy SEAL be made for 200 cps?

I agree with HANS.
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Old 05-23-2005, 11:23 AM   #43
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Default Re: Can a Navy SEAL be made for 200 cps?

I suspect that a 3e-style SEAL template would end up in the 200- to 300-point zone in 4e. Split the difference and call it 250 points. If keeping it "on budget" is crucial, consider:

-- Buying HP from their high, ST-based level down to human-average level, to reflect lean muscle as opposed to bulk.

-- Buying Basic Speed down to a round level. This is probably realistic if some of it comes from DX that's meant to represent general training and not innate reflexes.

-- Optimizing Will and especially Per against Will- and Per-based skills.

-- Deleting bogus skill specialties (of which the 3e template has quite a few).

-- Taking advantage of the fact that defaults between Guns specialties are more generous in 4e. If you take one good Guns skill, you can probably get away with having most of the others at default. Just abstract the weapons training as the reason for that one good skill.

-- Creating a Talent for special-ops troops and assuming SEALS are selected for it. Call it "Stalker," and have it cover Camouflage, Forward Observer, Hiking, Soldier, Stealth, and Tactics.
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Old 05-23-2005, 12:09 PM   #44
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Default Re: Can a Navy SEAL be made for 200 cps?

>I suspect that a 3e-style SEAL template would end up in the 200- to 300-point zone in 4e. Split the difference and call it 250 points.

Heh. Did I already mention my SEAL template comes out exactly at 250? ;)

>-- Buying HP from their high, ST-based level down to human-average level, to reflect lean muscle as opposed to bulk.

My template has ST 12, which is reasonable, I think. Weightlifting was already popular among SEALs in the late 1960s . . . then again, many of the chaps don't look more muscular than any normal guy. All that swimming has to have some impact, though, so increased ST is certainly in order.

>Buying Basic Speed down to a round level. This is probably realistic if some of it comes from DX that's meant to represent general training and not innate reflexes.

Then again, good reflexes might well be common with those guys . . .

>-- Deleting bogus skill specialties (of which the 3e template has quite a few).

Which do you mean? Other than the Tactics specializations, which aren't available in 4e anyway, nothing immediately springs to mind. Ah, Electronics Op (Sensors) should go, I guess. But that's about it. They need all the Survival variants.

>Taking advantage of the fact that defaults between Guns specialties are more generous in 4e. If you take one good Guns skill, you can probably get away with having most of the others at default. Just abstract the weapons training as the reason for that one good skill.

That certainly works. Take Rifle.

>Creating a Talent for special-ops troops and assuming SEALS are selected for it. Call it "Stalker," and have it cover Camouflage, Forward Observer, Hiking, Soldier, Stealth, and Tactics.

I would not call that Stalker. Skip Forward Observer, that needs to go with Electronics Op (Comm), Navigation, and possibly Observation.

I like the Soldier Talent suggested by cmdicely earlier.

For what it's worth, these talents would work with me:

Ranger/Stalker, whatever you want to call it

Camouflage, Hiking, Navigation, Stealth, and Tracking.

Which would work for real forest rangers just as well as for SAS guys and wood elves -- but not for SEALs, necessarily, since they don't need Tracking.

Born Soldier

Leadership, Navigation, Observation, Soldier, and Tactics.

(not Strategy -- that's for Born Leader)

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Old 05-23-2005, 12:17 PM   #45
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Default Re: Can a Navy SEAL be made for 200 cps?

Ah, but I might add that I'd be wary of including a Talent in a template. Sure, something like Born Soldier might be common with SEALs or other soldiers, but in the end, probably as many as not would not have it -- they need to work hard for their skills just like the next grunt. It is a good advantage for military chaps, but it shouldn't be a REQUIREMENT.

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Old 05-23-2005, 12:59 PM   #46
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Default Re: Can a Navy SEAL be made for 200 cps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HANS
My template has ST 12, which is reasonable, I think. Weightlifting was already popular among SEALs in the late 1960s . . . then again, many of the chaps don't look more muscular than any normal guy. All that swimming has to have some impact, though, so increased ST is certainly in order.
Yeah, for sure. I'd go for something like:

Attributes: ST 12 [20]; DX 13 [60]; IQ 13 [60]; HT 12 [20].
Secondary Characteristics: Dmg 1d-1/1d+2; BL 29 lbs.; HP 10 [-4]; Will 14 [5]; Per 14 [5]; FP 12 [0]; Basic Speed 6.00 [-5]; Basic Move 6 [0].

Quote:
Originally Posted by HANS
Then again, good reflexes might well be common with those guys . . .
I'd call that Combat Reflexes, and put it on the advantages menu, along with +1.00 Basic Speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HANS
Which do you mean? Other than the Tactics specializations, which aren't available in 4e anyway, nothing immediately springs to mind. Ah, Electronics Op (Sensors) should go, I guess. But that's about it. They need all the Survival variants.
I might be mis-remembering. I just recall rafts of specialties on the Special Ops, Second Edition templates giving me nightmares. ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HANS
Born Soldier

Leadership, Navigation, Observation, Soldier, and Tactics.
I'd probably add Savoir-Faire (Military) to this.
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Old 05-23-2005, 01:05 PM   #47
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Default Re: Can a Navy SEAL be made for 200 cps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HANS
Ah, but I might add that I'd be wary of including a Talent in a template. Sure, something like Born Soldier might be common with SEALs or other soldiers, but in the end, probably as many as not would not have it -- they need to work hard for their skills just like the next grunt. It is a good advantage for military chaps, but it shouldn't be a REQUIREMENT.
I don't know . . . I've heard tales that one doesn't work to become an <insert elite special-ops trooper>; one is born an <insert elite special-ops trooper>. It could be hooey. But if it isn't hooey -- and, boy, armed services really do like their tests and cuts! -- then it makes sense that only "natural soldiers" ever get into the unit. Frankly, I think lots of professions are like this. "Professional Orchestra Performer" would almost certainly have Musical Ability, and I would wager that "Inventor" needs Artificer. Careerists in most rarified professions are almost certainly naturals. There just aren't enough jobs to make room for those who lack a natural edge.
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Old 05-23-2005, 01:14 PM   #48
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Default Re: Can a Navy SEAL be made for 200 cps?

>Attributes: ST 12 [20]; DX 13 [60]; IQ 13 [60]; HT 12 [20].
Secondary Characteristics: Dmg 1d-1/1d+2; BL 29 lbs.; HP 10 [-4]; Will 14 [5]; Per 14 [5]; FP 12 [0]; Basic Speed 6.00 [-5]; Basic Move 6 [0].

That looks pretty much like my template -- except that I have HT 13. It also didn't occur to me that you could buy down Speed and HP; I might add that. Although frankly, right now the template perfectly evens out at 250 points, so I might not bother ;)

>>Born Soldier
>I'd probably add Savoir-Faire (Military) to this.

I left it out on purpose -- military biographies (and fiction) are full of "perfect soldiers" that seem to lack that, getting into problems with incapable officers etc. Then again, one might argue they, by definition, aren't PERFECT soldiers -- they just have high soldier-type skills . . .

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Old 05-23-2005, 01:20 PM   #49
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Default Re: Can a Navy SEAL be made for 200 cps?

>I don't know . . . I've heard tales that one doesn't work to become an <insert elite special-ops trooper>; one is born an <insert elite special-ops trooper>.

I doubt that. I have read a lot of biographies of such guys. One should be wary to draw too many conclusions from those, I guess, but I do get the impression that many are just damn hard workers with an iron will. If there is one characteristic that ALL of them seem to have (across the ages, services, and countries) is WILL, not talent. As I said, undoubtedly many ARE talented in one or more respects, but I doubt ALL of them are.
As to entrance tests, few of them actually test military skills -- you have to have them, of course, but stuff like BUD/S is a test of willpower above else.

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Old 05-23-2005, 01:40 PM   #50
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Default Re: Can a Navy SEAL be made for 200 cps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
I
-- Taking advantage of the fact that defaults between Guns specialties are more generous in 4e. If you take one good Guns skill, you can probably get away with having most of the others at default. Just abstract the weapons training as the reason for that one good skill.
So that would Guns (LMG)-16 so that Guns(GL) and Guns(LAW) would be 12 ?
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