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Old 06-19-2018, 07:23 AM   #31
Harald387
 
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Default Re: Character Generation House Rules

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
The "simpler" solution is to "just" make sure those disadvantages are disadvantageous in the dungeon somehow. I'm all for creative solutions, but this one could do with someone creative coming up with a list of ways to do that and sharing with the rest of us struggling to make it work :P
I'd go with changing the template, personally:

Reduce Appearance to Unattractive [-4]; Change the Social Stigma to (Half-Breed) [-5]; add Magic Susceptibility 3 [-9] reflecting the fact that something (evil wizard, accident of magic, etc) had to go interfere to let an ogre interbreed with an orc or human, and the children remain kind of susceptible to magic.

Alternately: give them full IQ, and make the racial template cost 40 points like Cat-Folk do.

Third alternative: Add +1 Per [5] and +1 Will [5] (bringing both back up to 10); bring Night Vision up to 4 [4]; reduce appearance to Unattractive [-4] and change the Social Stigma to (Half-Breed) [-5]; add Gluttony (12-) [-5], Bad Temper (12-) [-10], and Berserk (15-) [-5].
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Old 06-19-2018, 08:49 AM   #32
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Default Re: Character Generation House Rules

Another way to make the Social Disadvantages actually disadvantage the character is to change the reaction roll when selling ("For you, a special price", Exploits p.16) as follows:

Make a reaction roll before each selling spree. Total all of the group's reaction modifiers for Appearance, Charisma, Social Stigmas, and Voice; even when Bards sell items, they're judged by the company they keep. On a Very Good reaction or better, treat the seller's wealth level as one higher. However, on a Bad reaction or worse, treat the seller's wealth level as one less!

Example: Eddie the Human Bard (Attractive Appearance, Charisma 3, Voice, for a total of +6 in reaction modifiers) typically delves with Mike the Half-Ogre Scout (Ugly Appearance and Social Stigma: Savage, for a total of -4 on reactions), Stone the Dwarf Priest (no reaction bonuses or penalties), Jeff the Half-Elf Wizard (Social Stigma: Half-Breed, for -1 to reaction rolls), and Matt the Catfolk Barbarian (Social Stigma: Minority Group, for -2 to reaction rolls).

Eddie's +6 is canceled out by Mike and Matt's negative modifiers; when the merchant is a human or an elf, he rolls at a net -1 penalty because he hangs around with that half-breed Jeff. Instead of an average roll netting him a +20% to sale value, he's stuck hocking gear for a fair market price because he hangs around with a bunch of antisocial monsters.

This hangs the disadvantage on the entire party; the choice becomes whether to get the extra utility in the dungeon that a half-ogre brings (he's strong, and hits things for us!) in exchange for losing utility as a group in town.
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Old 06-19-2018, 11:39 AM   #33
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Default Re: Character Generation House Rules

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You misunderstand. Not "narrowly focused on adventuring," narrowly focused on a specific aspect of adventuring."
So... wait. Then why do you want to slap Discriminatory Smell on Half-Ogres? That more narrowly focuses them.
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Old 06-19-2018, 02:10 PM   #34
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Default Re: Character Generation House Rules

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So... wait. Then why do you want to slap Discriminatory Smell on Half-Ogres? That more narrowly focuses them.
Maybe this would be clearer if I use "aligned." All Hoager ads make them better warriors. All of their disads are at best tangential to battle. So the template is 58 CP of fighting in exchange for 20 raw CP and 38 CP of disads that don't affect fighting.

Discriminatory smell is tangential to fighting, so it makes the template less focused on/aligned with fighting. It is still in synergy with wilderness skills though, so it just encourages Hoagers who are scouts or barbs.
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Old 06-19-2018, 02:26 PM   #35
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Default Re: Character Generation House Rules

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Originally Posted by Harald387 View Post
I'd go with changing the template, personally:
...
(snip various good ideas)

How about this:
  • Reduce appearance to Unattractive (net +4)
  • Add Klutz (they break a lot of stuff, net -5)
  • Add Cultural Adaptability (net +10 points)
  • Add Perk "Always Ready for Clubbing" (+1 pt - ignore up to 4 points of penalties when improvising club type weapons)
This makes them 30 points, gives them 10 positive points from almost being a monster that most combat munchkins will not covet, an adds one of those queasy "GM is literally out to get you" style disads. Still potentially too strong, but less so than before, and now weirdly aligned with being a bard.
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Old 06-20-2018, 12:16 AM   #36
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Default Re: Character Generation House Rules

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Originally Posted by martinl View Post
Maybe this would be clearer if I use "aligned." All Hoager ads make them better warriors. All of their disads are at best tangential to battle. So the template is 58 CP of fighting in exchange for 20 raw CP and 38 CP of disads that don't affect fighting.

Discriminatory smell is tangential to fighting, so it makes the template less focused on/aligned with fighting. It is still in synergy with wilderness skills though, so it just encourages Hoagers who are scouts or barbs.
So... do you have the same problem with Dwarfs? 45 points of being better at fighting (tougher is better) and -25 that doesn't make then any worse (I can see the argument that -5 of it is 'slower getting to the fight').

Or Half-Orc, 34 points in 'tougher fighter', -14 in 'nothing to worry about in the dungeon'.

Elf? Of their 45 points in 'ranged combat bad-ssery', 5 points aren't useful. And there's -25 points in 'not a problem, barely an inconvenience'.

Catfolk are 65 points of Thief/Swashbuckler/Martial Artist excellence, 7 points* of 'meh', and -32 points of 'even less problems than Elf'. *Martial Artist likes Claws though.

I could do the rest, but honestly only Halflings and Gnomes are really "forced" into single template excellence†, the rest are all great at 2-4 templates.


† They can do more than one template, but they aren't as 'great' at the second template. Halflings make excellent Scouts, Gnomes make excellent Thieves. They can do other stuff, but their primary ads don't help much outside those specialties. If that's what you want, single/double template specialization, go for it, but note that all the templates really need work then (except Half-Elf... which really doesn't bring much to the table).
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Old 06-20-2018, 07:25 AM   #37
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Default Re: Character Generation House Rules

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So... do you have the same problem with Dwarfs? 45 points of being better at fighting (tougher is better) and -25 that doesn't make then any worse (I can see the argument that -5 of it is 'slower getting to the fight').
Dwarves are good, but not great. The FP, move, and poison resistance points are all second tier.

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Or Half-Orc,
Ditto on second tieriness of resistances.
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Elf? Of their 45 points in 'ranged combat bad-ssery', 5 points aren't useful. And there's -25 points in 'not a problem, barely an inconvenience'.
Oh come on. Appearance, magery, and -1 ST. Also "SoD Nature" is actually an inconvenience - lots of dungeon monsters are animals.
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Catfolk are 65 points of Thief/Swashbuckler/Martial Artist excellence, 7 points* of 'meh', and -32 points of 'even less problems than Elf'. *Martial Artist likes Claws though.
Kitties have -1 ST, catfall, and claws/teeth/temp tolerance.

But sure, yeah, this is all debatable theorycrafting. It is a result of analysis I did after I realized that every time I made a fighty PC or NPC a little voice in the back of my head would say "this character would be "stronger" as a Half Ogre."
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Old 06-20-2018, 01:53 PM   #38
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The FP ...and poison resistance points are all second tier.
"Second tier"? I'd say top tier when you're going into an environment likely to have poisons and you need to spend FP. Sure it isn't Base Stat good, but's also not "Pickaxe Penchant" level of niche.

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Oh come on. Appearance, magery, and -1 ST.
I'll grant you I forgot the Appearance. But I counted the -1 ST in their "-25 of barely an inconvenience".

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Also "SoD Nature" is actually an inconvenience - lots of dungeon monsters are animals.
Which are likely to attack and SoD Nature doesn't care if you kill nature's creatures in self defense. Or if you need food. Or a host of other reasons as long as you're not despoiling nature and being a 'big game hunter' type while doing it.

SoD Nature is a big hassle in 'wilderness hex crawl' games where local druidy types are going to be constantly pestering the Elf in the party to go 'help the forest creatures against the encroaching woodsmen' or some such. For free.

But that's the GM going out of his way to make a disad feel like a disad. So I approve.

Quote:
Kitties have -1 ST, catfall, and claws/teeth/temp tolerance.
See above on '-1 ST' and Catfall isn't bad. It's great for Thief/Scout/Swashbuckler types who want to engage in high mobility dungeon parkour combat.

Quote:
It is a result of analysis I did after I realized that every time I made a fighty PC or NPC a little voice in the back of my head would say "this character would be "stronger" as a Half Ogre."
I feel the same way every time I think about making a Wizard and that voice says "It should be a High Elf from DF"... or a Knight and the voice says "Dwarf or Orc, you know this to be true!" or a Thief and it ends up as Gnome, every time.

My point, sure, go ahead and make a template more expensive, but it's not really slowing all the other excellently niche templates from still being excellently niche. It just makes that one template a bit less 'excellent' (or in this specific case, it makes Half-Ogres slightly less "all warrior" broad).
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Old 06-20-2018, 02:43 PM   #39
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Default Re: Character Generation House Rules

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"Second tier"? I'd say top tier when you're going into an environment likely to have poisons and you need to spend FP. Sure it isn't Base Stat good, but's also not "Pickaxe Penchant" level of niche.
It's a good advantage for Thieves, Scouts, and Barbarians, who are generally assigned to trap duty in one way or another (if only by accident by "going up ahead" or "kicking in doors").

Because people tend to make statements like "resistance bonuses are marginal", I've gone out of my way for the dungeon generator to include traps (which also ensures the Thief continues to have a role), and also things like poisoned fountains and rooms full of poison gas.
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Old 06-20-2018, 03:18 PM   #40
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Default Re: Character Generation House Rules

-1 ST on elf archers hurts so much, I can't see it as hardly an inconvenience
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