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Old 03-05-2017, 03:16 PM   #11
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Join Date: Jul 2013
Default Re: [TG] Trained Strength - Expanded

Originally Posted by dfinlay View Post
1. You kind of want to make sure that every task you'd want it to has a skill that helps in this way. For instance, what determines whether you take movement penalties for encumbrance? Hiking makes sense for extended treks, but what about in combat - Hiking still? Running? What about dodge penalties for encumbrance? How about ST rolls to resist things like being knocked over by gale force winds? This could get tricky.

2. Paperwork. It seems like this would require a lot of extra bureaucracy. You'd have to be keeping track of encumbrance thresholds for multiple different types of encumbrance and where you are at on each one, every time you want to do a ST-task, you need to decide what the relevant skill is and compute what the relevent ST is and then what the BL/thr/sw (whichever you need) is from that. This seems like it would slow things down a fair bit.

3. It still doesn't do anything about the absurd cost of ST for characters that should have extremely high ST and not because they have absurd levels of skill. Now, I realize this wasn't the goal, but if you're doing something to overhaul ST, it seems like it should be kept in mind.
These are without a doubt the most important questions that need asking. Hiking for long treks is obvious, Running for covering ground quickly, your highest Combat skill might actually be the most appropriate for moving in combat, but that seems like it gives too much power to combat skills. It might be appropriate to just add a new skill, not sure what it's called, but essentially the skill of moving in combat, like a more basic version of Acrobatics.

It's possible to list the different encumbrance levels on your sheet, but I agree that it adds more paperwork. You'd want to keep the list of skills you need to consider as short as possible.

As for the cost of ST... Yeah, it's a pain. I think it's one of those things I'm just going to ignore, since this isn't meant to be an overhaul, just a stop-gap measure until I find an overhaul I like.

(Also, to address the issue of what is and isn't a reasonable ST, that's been done to death, I don't want to discuss it in this thread, everyone has there own opinions. Lets just say for the sake of argument, that Basic Lift for ST 20 is reasonable, but I'd like to cap it at 16, because that's what I personally feel is reasonable for the other attributes in a typical game. Basically I want to put it on the same scale.)
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Old 03-06-2017, 05:54 AM   #12
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
Default Re: [TG] Trained Strength - Expanded

Originally Posted by onetrikpony View Post
Extra effort is an optional rule, and the lifting skill doesn't have any default.
So... given those parameters GURPS lifting and carrying capacity is even lower than it should be to represent an average (10) and maximum (20).
I'm not sure what your point is about lifting not having a default (those without lifting skill can use EE to increase their lift)

Extra effort may well be an optional rule, but if you watch weight lifting competitions it's rather a realistic one. So I think it's good to include it when trying to model this.

The thing is if you don't include these two factors instead just using a ST range, you end you with ST20 people how can automatically make larger Olympic record weight fits every few seconds for as long as they like.

And that's just not how it works.

This also leaves aside that ST20 is the racial average for a 1,000lb polar bear

Originally Posted by onetrikpony View Post
(IMO the lifting skill (+5% / MoS) doesn't represent how badly poor technique hampers your strength at a lift but probably represents real-world situations, outside the gym pretty well.)

Don't forget that when you use lift in conjunction with EE it's a different system

Originally Posted by onetrikpony View Post
I definitely agree with that. I also agree with all of the points that followed except for #2. In terms of units of force ft/lbs, Joules human striking power is pretty much in line with hand guns. (according to my research.)

The average karate guy punches with 120-150 ft-lb which is pretty much inline with the muzzle energy you'd get from .22lr handgun. Frank Bruno was measured to land 1400+ Lb*F which extrapolates to 1600 Joules. That's easily the same power as a 10mm cartridge (IIRC. I'll links and pastem below.)

We know that humans are physically capable of producing thrust damage in line with pistol cartridge damage so, to me, it doesn't seem unrealistic that that same power applied to swing damage and a sword kills people outright.

However; Bigger != Faster and a ST20 power lifter can't hit like a ST16 heavyweight. The difference would be skill so I'm fully on board with the skill = power system. (and diametrically opposed to the 2x HP & Dmg system)

I would suggest (as a humble GURPS newb) that Striking Strength be capped at (some point) and skills grant access to surpassing that cap.

wiki on common handgun cartridge power
Clinical study of concussion in football and boxing
An article that references several real studies of boxers none of which I can find now but I recall to be referenced correctly. (will keep looking F'n internet! no body sites anything anymore.)
An awesome scan of an ancient magazine article about Rocky Marciano and what he used to do to guys in the ring.

The problems is ft-lbs is not very good way to quantify how very different weapons injure people (large slow moving fists vs. very fast but small bullets).

Last edited by Tomsdad; 03-06-2017 at 06:51 AM.
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technical grappling, trained st

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