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Old 02-10-2011, 10:39 PM   #41
Icelander
 
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk View Post
Problem is it isn't that rare. I trained to reload while keeping my right hand (strong side) on the M-16 pistol grip while using my left (weak side) to reload. The only thing my right hand did was hit the magazine release. And I'm a pogue.
Do you reload in 1 second or 3 seconds? Can you reload that fast while being shot at?

Because if you only reload in three seconds and/or cannot reload with such alacrity except under carefully controlled circumstances, you don't need any check to do that and the theoretical possibility of a penalty for using the off-hand is moot.

My personal opinion is that the real world actions represented by the sub-1 second Fast-Draw (Pistol) or the 1-second drop magazine > Fast-Draw (Ammo) > drop magazine into the magazine well are so rarely demonstrated that it is perfectly realistic to make it very hard to perform under combat conditions. Requiring an extra Off-Hand Weapon Training Perk or a high enough Fast-Draw (Ammo) roll to make it reliable even at the penalty is just fine with me. Doing it on the IPSC range is at a positive TDM compared to the battlefield anyway, so the -4 penalty is less important.
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Old 02-10-2011, 10:45 PM   #42
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Do you reload in 1 second or 3 seconds? Can you reload that fast while being shot at?
Like I said, pogue. I didn't say I trained enough to be good at it. But it is obviously a skill that is practiced, and by a fairly broad group of people. I'm just objecting to the idea that it's a rare skill.

I'd say I got it down to 2-3 seconds, usually, if the top of my mag pouch was folded back so I didn't have to pop that open too. Why would it be 1 second? Dropping the mag is one Ready, FD(ammo) eliminates the second for drawing the mag, then you have two more Ready actions to insert the mag and hit the bolt release which can be dropped to 1 sec with Familiarity with the weapon.

IME the way it goes is you drop the mag with your right hand while drawing the new one with your left, insert, then ready, but whatever. For me the FD(ammo) is training to pull the new mag (quickly) with one hand while dropping the old mag with the other.
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Old 02-10-2011, 10:58 PM   #43
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

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I held out for two hours before finally buying it. :(

Is there an SJGames Anonymous somewhere? ;)
I've been waiting for this book forever, and it makes me want to go back and do my military sci-fi again (though it's amazing how many things from this book Ultra-Tech makes redundant. Guns loud? That's ok, the players have hearing protection built into their helmets. Hard to communicate in a gunfight? That's ok, the players have radios built into their helmets.) But I knew it would.

I'll have to finish the book before I make my final verdict, but I must say, I'm enjoying it immensely so far. So much good stuff in here; such a meaty book.
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Old 02-10-2011, 10:59 PM   #44
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk View Post
Like I said, pogue. I didn't say I trained enough to be good at it. But it is obviously a skill that is practiced, and by a fairly broad group of people. I'm just objecting to the idea that it's a rare skill.

I'd say I got it down to 2-3 seconds, usually, if the top of my mag pouch was folded back so I didn't have to pop that open too. Why would it be 1 second? Dropping the mag is a free action with familiarity with the weapon, FD(ammo) eliminates the second for drawing the mag, then you have two more Ready actions to insert the mag and hit the bolt release.
In Basic, reloading is a 3 second process. I accidentally took one second off that for Familiarity and one off for Fast-Draw (Ammo). Looks like that is double-dipping and it ought to be four seconds before reductions, which is the new time given in Tactical Shooting.

In that case, looks like it should be two seconds for a trained operator with Fast-Draw (Ammo). On the other hand, I stand by the assertion that doing this while walking, Dodging, maintaining Situational Awareness or any other thing that an unmodified Ready allows you to do ought to be very hard.

I think that a 'normal' Fast-Draw (Ammo) is actually an All-Out (Determined) Ready for a +4 to a DX-based task.

But I also note that the off-hand for any given task is whichever hand you did not originally train the task with. If your character learned to write with his right hand (because he grew up during times when teachers enforced that for everyone), but pitch with his left, that's not worth a Perk. It's just a feature, or possibly worth a Quirk if you figure out to work in a roleplaying element.

In the same way, being trained to Fast-Draw (Ammo) with your left is perfectly valid and would mean that you performed it with full skill when using the left hand, but -4 when using the right, because that is not the way you trained to do it. This would apply even if the character was otherwise right-handed.
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Old 02-10-2011, 11:07 PM   #45
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
On the other hand, I stand by the assertion that doing this while walking, Dodging, maintaining Situational Awareness or any other thing that an unmodified Ready allows you to do ought to be very hard.
Agreed. I'd most likely drop the mag trying to do it while getting shot at. Unfortunately there's no default for FD, so I must have it at DX+0, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
But I also note that the off-hand for any given task is whichever hand you did not originally train the task with. If your character learned to write with his right hand (because he grew up during times when teachers enforced that for everyone), but pitch with his left, that's not worth a Perk. It's just a feature, or possibly worth a Quirk if you figure out to work in a roleplaying element.

In the same way, being trained to Fast-Draw (Ammo) with your left is perfectly valid and would mean that you performed it with full skill when using the left hand, but -4 when using the right, because that is not the way you trained to do it. This would apply even if the character was otherwise right-handed.
That's fair.
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Old 02-10-2011, 11:11 PM   #46
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

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Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk View Post
Agreed. I'd most likely drop the mag trying to do it while getting shot at. Unfortunately there's no default for FD, so I must have it at DX+0, right?
Don't look at me. If it was me, I'd have loading your weapon fast be an Average technique of weapon skill, defaulting at a fairly large penalty. This accounts for how everyone could certainly try it, only those who train to do it extensively are good at it. And some troops are very good at that without being good shots.

I'd have Fast-Draw be an Unusual Training Style Perk, which bought access to it at DX-level and allowed the raising of a special technique for drawing weapons.
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Old 02-11-2011, 12:16 AM   #47
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

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Originally Posted by warmachine View Post
Given the choice, I prefer reading from dead trees. What are the chances of a printed version?
I think it's unlikely that it will go PoD before it's predecessor Gun-Fu does. Gun-Fu is sitting at 519 right now, and I don't think there's been a lot of movement on it in awhile.
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Old 02-11-2011, 02:10 AM   #48
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

I have a question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactical Shooting
A moving man makes for a poor firing base. Nevertheless,
shooting on the move is often unavoidable.

Move and Attack

Shooting while moving means that your attack gets a penalty
of -2 or the weapon’s Bulk rating, whichever is worse (p. B365).

You can buy off this penalty by learning Close-Quarters Battle
(p. 43). Move and Attack using CQB involves the “tactical walk”
or “combat glide” – a kind of fast walking without exaggerated
movement or body mechanics, with smaller steps than usual
and as little movement of the upper body as possible. This prevents
too much disturbance of the “firing platform” and also
avoids tripping (including over your own feet).
In closer spaces, the “shuffle step” is preferred, a movement
that has the shooter take slow, deliberate steps without crossing
the legs. The feet aren’t dragged along, but placed normally.
This is typically done at Move/3, or Move 1 when stealth is
required (p. B222).
There's not much here we didn't already know, and this all makes sense. If you move, you have a penalty to your shot equal to bulk. It says so right in Move and Attack.

Except Move and Attack isn't the only way to move and fire a weapon. You are allowed to make an All-Out Attack and fire a weapon (either "Determined" aka "a sighted shot" or "Suppression Fire"). This isn't controversial either. However, under All-Out Attack:

Quote:
Originally Posted by B365
Movement: You may move up to
half your Move, but you can only
move forward.
The language is clear: When you're making an All-Out Attack, either version, you're allowed to move half of your movement. Nowhere in All-Out Attack does it state that ranged attacks suffer a bulk penalty if you do this. In fact, the only place it states this is Move and Attack. In fact, bulk is defined thus:

Quote:
Originally Posted by B270
Bulk
Ranged weapons only. A measure of
the weapon’s size and handiness. Bulk
modifies your weapon skill when you
take a Move and Attack maneuver (see
Move and Attack, p. 365)
.
That's very explicit. You suffer the Bulk penalty only when you take the Move and Attack maneuver, which is a specific maneuver, not a general rule.

Tactical Shooting seems, from my reading, to assume that AoAs with a gun will be made standing still, but as I understand the rules, that's not so. In fact, you could probably simulate the "shuffle step" pretty nicely with an AoA determined: Sighting down at the target while moving in a deliberate but quick fashion that gives no penalties to shooting at the cost of being able to dodge, and yet Hans doesn't discuss this.

Am I missing something? I've hunted over the errata on this and the FAQ and found nothing. Is it intentional that one can make an AoA to move and fire without suffering bulk penalties, or is it the intention that the ability to move and attack during an AoA is limited only to melee attacks and this is errata?
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Old 02-11-2011, 02:56 AM   #49
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

When you Move and Attack you can still dodge and block and you have your full move, though slower while shuffle stepping. When you AoA, you have no active defense and only half move. So I'd say it's intentional, at least in the Basic Set. I don't have TS yet.

Move and Attack, even with shuffle step, is more defensive than AoA. Perhaps that's why you get the bulk penalty.
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Old 02-11-2011, 05:42 AM   #50
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Fast-Draw (Ammo) covers every step of quick reloading. The roll speeds up the whole procedure, whether that's a few seconds with a removable magazine or a minute with a powder horn. It isn't really a task that's sensitive to handedness, as it involves both hands anyway.
This. Fast-Draw always requires two hands (if you have only one available, you need One-Hand Drills) it does not just cover the off-hand reaching for the reload. It covers all the little elements performed by you, including those of both hands and even possible body movements like twisting the torso: ejecting (some weapons require the off-hand for this, others the strong hand), retrieval (this is typically done with the off-hand), insertion (dito), readying (depends on the weapon) -- simply everthing. Including tricks like flipping the weapon to ensure instant, positive extraction, inserting in front of your face for a positive insertion, angling the magazine well towards the off-hand, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
I suppose you could be forced to operate one-handed, have the right perk for that, and be using the wrong hand.
That would apply.

The specific situation I was thinking about is that you're shooting the weapon from the off-hand position (frex, while Shooting around Cover, see Tactical Shooting, p. 28). When you then have to reload, your hands are reversed, and the penalties from p. B14 apply.

Cheers

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