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Old 08-11-2008, 07:48 AM   #1
Matuku
 
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Default Mages Weak?

I haven't had much chance to play a mage in 4th Edition but recently, looking through the books, it seems to be that they seem to get a pretty short-shrift; especially a combat mage. The amount of FP even the most basic spells seem to cost (Fireball) and the long time they take to cast seems to me to be extremely hindering to mages in any turn-based situation. For example, assume a Magery 3 mage who chucks fireballs around. He gets 3 or 4 3d fireballs off (1 every other turn I believe) before he's basically so weak he's almost asleep on his feet (assuming he's within human norms for FP). A good fighter on the otherhand will still be dealing out damage and going strong (I know it's not really fair to compare a mage to a normal weapon-based fighter though). And then, after every fight you have to wait for the mage to get all their FP back before moving on I suppose.

In a mage duel it's even less time if they want to get their powerful spells off! As I say I haven't had much chance to play them so what have other people found; do their mages just take up extra space on the battlefield and are only good out of combat, or do they actually hold their own quite well?
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Old 08-11-2008, 08:02 AM   #2
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Default Re: Mages Weak?

Actually you have to keep in mind that fireball is a ranged spell at first, second remember that high skill lead to less energy spend on the spell, a good mage can throw 2d fireballs for free, and third mages buy power stones and other stuff the same way a warrior buys armor and weapons.

So is not that mages are weak, most of the time is that it isn't built right :)
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Old 08-11-2008, 08:19 AM   #3
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Default Re: Mages Weak?

You mention 4th Edition... Have you played a mage in an earlier edition? Excepting the removal of 'instantaneous' casting, and the upgrading of missile spells, 4E mages play pretty much the same as before.

A lot of the apparent weakness has to do with basic assumptions of the game, I think. You could probably find earlier threads or archived articles examining such in detail. Played straight, mages aren't usually going to excel at combat at lower point levels, due in large part to the FP problem. In a party with each member fitting a certain role, the mage will usually bring the ability to quick-fix certain problems that might take prohibitive time or effort with mundane abilities. If you want to make them more combat-ready, the easiest way is to allow them to buy up their fatigue; either regular extra FP, or Energy Reserves, or readily available Powerstones.
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Old 08-11-2008, 08:28 AM   #4
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Default Re: Mages Weak?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery
You mention 4th Edition... Have you played a mage in an earlier edition? Excepting the removal of 'instantaneous' casting, and the upgrading of missile spells, 4E mages play pretty much the same as before.
Well the only real experience I've had with mages was in a 3rd Edition campaign called 'Immortals' which was 1500pt characters and so was pretty broken in the rules department. I had a little goblin mage character in a 0pt campaign as well so I've not had any "normal" mage experience.
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Old 08-11-2008, 08:33 AM   #5
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Default Re: Mages Weak?

There's ways to get around the once every other turn aspect of fireball tossing. By taking compartmentalized mind (with a Granted by Familiar limitation on it), you can constantly charge one fireball while you throw another one. The best way to get around FP limitations is high skill level. Either drop a lot of points into the spell you want and be a specialist, or drop a lot of points in IQ or Magery so you can get a lot of spells at a high level for 1 point.

Beyond that, energy reserves are your friends.
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Old 08-11-2008, 08:47 AM   #6
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Default Re: Mages Weak?

I guess its really about the game role of the caster.

A normal point ~250pt cost mage, not the >=1500pt demi-god character is pretty buff. I find it required to keep both eyes on any spell casters. As they can be quite abusive if they spec into a very useful area or are potent in a narrow sense. Much more than a gun bunny/ninja character needs a leash thats for sure. You can always break a ninja's legs, mages are much harder to put back in the genie bottle

I think that a 250pt character, with a deep background of job rolls there after and someone walk up to be and call them weak. Likely with a solid IQ they are very useful as a mundane character in their own right. They have significant resources, are familiar with a large battery of subjects, and possibly could ruin your life anonymously or kill you out right.

That said if your forcing a mage to dungeon crawl with 250pts, they leave most of their character's edge behind at home. Its just the way that the fantasy genre tends to gimp them. And strong ranged/melee 'classes' do quite well in those situations, because they can spec exactly to it and being all their talents to bare.

It would be similar to having a character with piles of reaction modifiers and wealth levels and calling them weak IMO.
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Old 08-11-2008, 08:51 AM   #7
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Default Re: Mages Weak?

One way or another I would recommend not playing a mage/wizard type with low points, since it leave him stangely bugged for most usual scenarious. What could possibly work is mage-specialist that has only one collage as his special trait aside from mundane. (Good suggestions are healing collage, movement collage both allow something that is hard to mimic by munadane skilss and jet are simple for GM to take them into account.)

As posted before such mages serve as special occasion specialist. Creating on the other hand mages that are battle ready is possible as melee specialist fighter/mages or mages using dirty trick (check Spasm out, as well as any spell that disable opponent quicly).

But in the end I myself am still searching for possibility of wizard-generalist, that is able to do possibly anything and plays role of jack of all trades.

Just a friendly warning - don't boost IQ too much - your mage would have better defaults then trained characters have skills + the magic to handle it only leads to distastful ends.
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Old 08-11-2008, 09:00 AM   #8
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Default Re: Mages Weak?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmillerd
It would be similar to having a character with piles of reaction modifiers and wealth levels and calling them weak IMO.
I second that, but sometimes when GM doesn't allow such characters to shine enought they are trully weak. No matter how handsome your bard is and how much charisma he has - but if the adventure is only about Hostile NPC, that will only trick players into nasty situation it makes bark weak and silly. Same for Wealth if the first thing GM does is that he steals party possesion. Example of bad GMing and since this is basic - when it come to magic it even gets worse.

My example - a Food mage - and GM never creates an opportunity for him to use his spells. Enemies don't eat or drink, allies have easy acces to food, no poisoning is allowed. Such mage spend his Character points for nothing.
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Old 08-11-2008, 09:03 AM   #9
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Default Re: Mages Weak?

Mages aren't "Weak" in combat any more than sneak-thieves are "weak" in combat - it's often just that they're strong in a whole bunch of other things and decent in combat.

Mage-friendly fights don't start suddenly when you're 10 yards away from the opponent. Those kinds of fights favor melee combatants, and penalize mages just as they penalize archers.

A mage-friendly fight starts with the two groups 30-50 yards apart, giving the mage a chance to turn the zone between the two groups into a killing field - Ice Slick, Tangle Growth, Grease, Hail, Create Fire, etc...

A mage-friendly fight can start within melee range, but the mage will want a few seconds of preparation. Just turning the corner and OMG, FIGHT is bad for mages, but it's also bad for archers and for stealthy thieves too.

And yes, the money the fighters spend on armor, shields, and swords (which are EXPENSIVE), the mage can spend on power stones, paut, a quarterstaff with the Staff enchantment (helps a lot with Range penalties)...
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Old 08-11-2008, 09:10 AM   #10
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Default Re: Mages Weak?

I can't agree more with Bruno, he is absolutely right. Shame that it was ignored by most GM I have played with - forcing close unprepared combat even in sittuations that would allow other solutions - that is a result of violent improvisation.
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